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Sudden, confused behavior?
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Old 02-04-2020, 05:47 AM   #1
Ralik
Sudden, confused behavior?

All,

I have had my corn snake for a few years now, and he has been very happy and healthy. I've never had any scary instances where I was worried because he was behaving very strangely or seemed sick.

About 30 minutes ago, as I was getting ready to head to bed, I saw him holding his mouth wide open with the glottis projected and open. He hasn't eaten in three weeks, though the last time I tried he was about to shed and wasn't having any of that. A quick google search revealed that this was not necessarily good behavior.

(I bought a new bulb for him today and haven't switched it in yet. It's gotten chilly the last week, and I was worried that my suspicions were right and he may not be as warm as the thermometers are suggesting.)

I panicked and was thinking that maybe he really needed to warm up, so I gently picked him up and moved him over to the warm side of the tank, where he began to act very erratically. He put his head under the water but didn't drink, he started moving along like he wasn't seeing things, and was spinning his head into the ground like he wasn't sure what was going on.

Then it clicked with me. I just started making soap as a hobby, and had a batch on the kitchen table not too far from his tank. I had thought the smell was a bit strong on my hands, and I had actually just finished washing them really well with water before I saw him initially. The soaps have since been moved far away.

I let him be for a bit, and started frantically looking up information online. It's been about 10 minutes and he is now acting perfectly normal and coherent. He's moving about like usual, responding to hearing my voice and seeing me move, etc. I just checked the temps again and they're low. It's 70 on the cool side and 80 on the warm, although he's been staying on the cool side rather than the warm.

Any thoughts on what was going on here? This just seemed very sudden. I want to change out his light if it sounds like he's too cool, but I don't want to disturb him if he is vulnerable or needs to be left alone. He's usually been very robust and non-problematic, and seeing him like this has really scared me. I know there's a lot of variables, but I want to make sure I'm coming to people who will know, and not just blindly trusting google with my little guy's life.

Thank you for any thoughts or feedback,
 
Old 02-04-2020, 05:58 AM   #2
Ralik
So I've done a bit more digging around, and it seems that oils and some fragrances are a no go and can have negative affects on snakes. I'm hoping that this is what it is, and that it's something that will be fine now that the short episode has passed.

I will definitely make sure that no fragrant supplies are around the cage area at all, and I'll make sure to do a more thorough rinsing of the hands before handling him in the future...
 
Old 02-04-2020, 06:18 AM   #3
Ralik
Another update. He still seems a bit lethargic, and is once again moving his head across things like he isn't sure where he is. I was able to switch out the bulb and get it a bit warmer, in case that helps. I really hope I didn't roast the little guy's nostrils or something.
 
Old 02-04-2020, 11:20 AM   #4
Karl_Mcknight
1). Too hot is worse than too cold. 2). all heat sources should have regulators (thermostats). 3). Most of us use under tank heat pads rather than bulbs. 4). Snakes will sometimes stretch their jaws and rub their noses on obstacles when trying to start a shed. They will sometimes soak trying to soften their skin before a shed. 5). if too hot, they will search for places to cool off including soaking in cool water. A snake wondering around with a gaping mouth can be a sign of heat stress or hard breathing due to respiratory infection. 6). Since none of us can see your snake, and since you are unsure, a trip to the Vet might be a good idea.
 
Old 02-04-2020, 12:47 PM   #5
Ralik
Update:

I've kept an eye on him, and he seems to be a bit better? He is still very lethargic and stunned acting, but is at least moving around more and a bit more responsive. He isn't holding his mouth open anymore either, so I'm hopeful it's not a respiratory problem (unless the oils would be worse, which I'm afraid might be the case). I think some of the scent/oils wafted over to his tank, because I can smell a bit in there, so I am going to change out his bedding and clean out his tank. I'm very convinced that the oils were the problem, as I had just used lavender, kiwi, and some citrus scents.

He is not holding his mouth open anymore (for a bit after I posted, he had one part of his mouth open a little bit).



Thanks for the reply Karl, here are some thoughts.

1: That is good to know. Is there a way to tell for sure which it could be? I feel confident about this, but it is always good to get more knowledge.

2: Are there any good recommendations or tips for these regulators? I've never seen one where I live, but it sounds like they are really the way to go, and would ease my stress during hot summer times.

3: I had previously heard these could burn the snakes, but I guess the regulator would fix that...

4: I don't think that he is starting to shed. He just shed a week or two ago, and wouldn't take food because of it. He hasn't eaten since, and that would by far be his quickest shed to shed time, on top of it being no food. I think we can safely rule that out.

5: I feel like too hot is not the problem here. It's definitely been colder than it has been for him most of the time, and unless both of the thermometers are wrong (which could be the case?) and my sense of temperature is deceiving me, it has been on the cool end in his tank the last few days. Are there any other sure signs for a respiratory issue? I've seen conflicting reports of this online.

6: I am currently looking into vets that may be able to take him. I had one where I used to live, but this city is relatively new, and I'm not finding one that deals with reptiles yet...
 
Old 02-04-2020, 05:13 PM   #6
Karl_Mcknight
Any heat source should have a thermostat. Your home heating system has one, your car has one. You can buy them online or at any pet shop that sells reptiles and reptile supplies. You really should have looked into that before purchasing the snake.

Do you know what the temperature in the cage is? Just because you have a thermometer sitting there saying 82 degrees doesn't mean it is. Those things measure the ambient temp of the air surrounding them. You snake lives and crawls around on the bottom of the cage. That is where you should take the measurements. Most of us have those hand held "Point and Shoot" type infrared thermometers for that purpose.

You should have a minimum of 2 hiding places in the cage (more is better). There should be at least one place on the cool side that is room temp (70 to 74 degrees year round). Then you should have a hiding spot on the warm side that is 82 to 86 degrees. The temperature should be measured inside the hiding spots.
 
Old 02-04-2020, 06:08 PM   #7
Rich Z
Some soaps can be toxic to animals, either via contact with the skin or if they ingest it. Not sure about breathing the fumes, but I certainly would be concerned about it. Snakes have a sense of smell many times better than humans have, and their tongue is used quite heavily to pick up odors in the air. So just because the fumes might seem rather light to you, probably not so to your snake. Bear in mind that soap is an excellent insecticide. So I think you should keep your snake as far away from your soap making efforts as possible, and thoroughly wash your hands before handling it or anything in it's cage.

Give your snake a choice of what temperature it wants to be at. Forcing it to be too hot or too cold likely won't help much, and could make things worse. I tended to keep my corns in the 78 to 82 degree range.

If things don't start looking better soon, you might want to consider taking it to a veterinarian to be checked out.

Good luck!
 
Old 02-04-2020, 06:15 PM   #8
Ralik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl_Mcknight View Post
Any heat source should have a thermostat. Your home heating system has one, your car has one. You can buy them online or at any pet shop that sells reptiles and reptile supplies. You really should have looked into that before purchasing the snake.

Do you know what the temperature in the cage is? Just because you have a thermometer sitting there saying 82 degrees doesn't mean it is. Those things measure the ambient temp of the air surrounding them. You snake lives and crawls around on the bottom of the cage. That is where you should take the measurements. Most of us have those hand held "Point and Shoot" type infrared thermometers for that purpose.

You should have a minimum of 2 hiding places in the cage (more is better). There should be at least one place on the cool side that is room temp (70 to 74 degrees year round). Then you should have a hiding spot on the warm side that is 82 to 86 degrees. The temperature should be measured inside the hiding spots.
Just so you are aware - I did do research before getting him, and his temps have been fine (as far as I know) for 3 years. I thought that a couple digital thermometers on either end (I have them placed close to the substrate) would be sufficient, but thank you for updating my information! I'm going out to grab an infrared thermometer in a few minutes. Though once again, it was pretty cool inside the tank, and I dont think heat was the issue here. I spend a lot of time making sure that his temps are not too hot based on the thermometers I have.

The air temp was 80 on the warm and and 70 on the cool end when this happened, if that helps at all.
 
Old 02-04-2020, 06:20 PM   #9
Ralik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Some soaps can be toxic to animals, either via contact with the skin or if they ingest it. Not sure about breathing the fumes, but I certainly would be concerned about it. Snakes have a sense of smell many times better than humans have, and their tongue is used quite heavily to pick up odors in the air. So just because the fumes might seem rather light to you, probably not so to your snake. Bear in mind that soap is an excellent insecticide. So I think you should keep your snake as far away from your soap making efforts as possible, and thoroughly wash your hands before handling it or anything in it's cage.

Give your snake a choice of what temperature it wants to be at. Forcing it to be too hot or too cold likely won't help much, and could make things worse. I tended to keep my corns in the 78 to 82 degree range.

If things don't start looking better soon, you might want to consider taking it to a veterinarian to be checked out.

Good luck!
Thanks for the kind advice RichZ.

Thinking back, the smell was really strong for me for a little while, so I can only imagine how bad it must have been for the little guy. I've made sure to move all of the stuff far away from where he is, and air everything out at length.

I will stay away from the soapmaking for a while until I get this figured out and male sure he is ok. Luckily, I've had him in a larger 30 gallon long tank, so he's got plenty of space to move around. As mentioned in the above post I'm going to get an infrared thermometer in a few.

As for hiding places, do you guys reccomend full 9n caves/covered structures, or will thicker plastic foliage work? I've had a larger plastic plant that is low and has lots of area to crawl around in and underneath on the warm end, and he has used it quite a lot.
 
Old 02-04-2020, 07:36 PM   #10
SnakeCreations
Hi Ralik and welcome to the forum!

There is a wealth of knowledge here, so you've come to the right place.

You've had this snake in these conditions for a few years, correct? It's likely that you identified the problem, rather than temps. I agree with Rich, let your snake decide where he wants to be, temp wise. It's smart to get a thermometer so you are able to measure the exact temp on each side. Snakes definitely do better with belly heat and don't require any basking lamps.

As for hiding places, I usually put one covered hide and something to climb on. The covered hide can be used as a moist hide when in shed.

Good luck and keep us updated!

-Tonya
 

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