Concave Underside

Hi Everyone,
We are a little worried about our 1.0 Butter Motley. PJ Checked him the other day and he was fine. I went today to look at him and his under belly was completely caved in. He is breathing rather hard. He has been perfectly fine up until now. He has never shown signs of a R.I. (no clicking, weasing, bubbles, etc.). Even though he never shown signs of an infection could it have gotten this bad, that is if this is a respiratory infection, in a short time? We are kind of freaked about it and he is definitely going to the vet tomorrow. Can you please look at the pictures and tell us what you think it may be. We will be quite upset if we lose this guy. Thanks for looking and for the replies.
Jay & PJ

something is deff. wrong there. i belive he just won a free trip to the vet

Sorry I can't be of assistance as I've never seen anything like that before. Wishing you and Titus the best. Thanks for sharing and please keep us updated!

That looks serious. I would go now.

I've never seen that either. I wish you good luck with him. Please keep us updated.


Joanna

He might have a collapsed lung.

How did it go at the Vet today? Is he OK?


Joanna

Titus goes to the vet tomorrow as that was the earliest he could get him in. We only had 2 vets in our area that have herp backgrounds. Our vet has now retired so we are now down to one. Titus needs to be there at 9:00. PJ sent an E-Mail to Kathy Love and asked her what she thought and this was here reply......

I have seen it rarely, almost always with okeetees about 1 - 2 years old. I thought maybe it was a genetic problem. But it was so rare, I didn't worry about it. I was guessing it was something to do with the lung, but I really don't know. The few snakes I had with it did pretty well for a while, but eventually died. If you find out anything from the vet, I would be curious to hear about it.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

Click to expand...

So we don't know what to expect...we shall find out in the morning. Thanks for asking and we will keep you posted.
Jay & PJ

I saw this yesterday but I didn't know what it was. I hope the vet can do something to help him. I have my fingers crossed for you guys!

Good Luck.


Jo

Any updates yet? id really like to learn more of what it is

and i hope the best for your snake

Wow that looks serious, Im gonna be looking back at this thread all day for what the vet says. Good Luck mate!

Update on Titus...

Hi Everyone,
This is PJ and I spent about 2 hours today at the vets! There seems to be a genetic problem. Possibly something like emphysema, cystic fibrous, or something like that. His heart rate is up about 86 bpm and he is not moving much air in his lung. He does not have a heart mummer or anything else like that. Our vet called a contact in California and they would like us to put him down and preserve his body for "Formalin Fix Necropsy" and do something like a gene history of him so the herp community can find an answer to this seemingly genetic disease. Right now we are not sure as to how far we should go to find out what exactly is wrong with him. I have spoken with Kathy Love about his appearance (caving in his chest) and she has seen this same characteristic in some of her Okeetees over the years but thought it was genetic but has only showed up very rarely and was thinking of giving the next one a necropsy. She said that this seems to show up about 1 yr of age and they don't make it to full adulthood before dying. She has contacted Connie Hurley and we are awaiting her input on Titus' condition as well. I have contacted the breeder and I know that his parents were not related. (And he was very good about this and we have nothing but good things to say about him.) So...what should we do? This is quite a costly procedure and it could give the herp community some interesting answers not yet found. Thank you all for you words of support and we will keep you all posted on this situation as it unfolds.
PJ & Jay

concave

I had this happen to our ball python. It was our first snake, so we were quite inexperienced. It was a hatchling from a pet store.

We had feeding problems.... but the snake seemed to be doing fine otherwise. The "caving in" happened quite suddenly (I was monitoring daily due to feeding problem) and I was unable to get to a vet that day. So I brought the snake to a local pet shop that has snake experience. They had never seen anything like it before. The obvious guess was starvation or dehydration but the snake looked completely healthy from the top. It was when you turned it over....Yikes!

Ours died that same night. I planned on dropping it to the vet the next day but I made the mistake of putting it in the freezer. Apparently that can cause the testing to be inaccurate. Freezing kills parasites. Vet said she could still check for some things but it may be inconclusive. Well, I figured the money would be better spent on a new snake. (or 3 new snakes for what it would've cost me for the testing).

I've talked to alot of experienced people and NOBODY knows anything about this. I've looked all over the internet. It's bizarre. I didn't talk to the pet store about it. It's the one in our mall. They couldn't even help with the feeding issues and I don't think they know much about their stock. I thought it was a ball issue, maybe from being imported. Now I know it happens with cornsnakes as well. I'd be very interested to see how this turns out for you.

Good Luck

I am very sorry for you guys and for Titus.

As to the necropsy and the genetic studies, that's a tough one. They might be very interesting but I wonder how helpful they would be. This is obviously not a common problem and it sounds like one that would have no cure. It may be hard to detect at the hatchling stage unless genetic or other studies were done on the snakes. This would be costly and I doubt many people would invest in the tests, if available. It would probably be much cheaper to return the money or replace the snake than to invest in the tests, for those breeders that would even bother! The knowledge gained would be very interesting I am sure, I am just not sure how helpful it would be to snake hobbyist, breeders, etc.

I think it is wonderful that you are contemplating the studies for the good of the community and I am sure there are others out there with much different opinions to mine. This is just my .02 .

My thoughts are with you. Having a sick animal and trying to decide what is best for them is very difficult.


Jo

Jo, you are right about the whole issue. The breeder did offer us our money or another snake but this not what why we told him. He is a great person and his snakes are wonderful. Just like Kathy Love's snakes are.

Just so everyone knows, we have all of Titus's feed/shed/weight records from the day he was born and he is a great eater and has been growing wonderfully. So it has nothing to do with starvation or dehydration. It is definitely a genetic issue.

Our vet called and offered to just put him to sleep and preserve his body until we have the funds. I am not sure if Jay and I want to go that route. I do know I have to decide soon as he is not feeling well at all and suffering is not in the best interest of anyone and or any animal.

Again, thank you Jo for you caring words.

PJ & Jay

In all honesty, the vet is just after your money. Have you tried contacting any Vet schools--they may be willing to find answers at no cost--in the name of science.

I agree with previous posters. Generally medical research is not funded by the victims. Considering they will be killing him first, it's not like there is the slightest chance of helping him, and given its rarity, how much will it help anyone?

Genetic issues can be tracked if not specifically identified through the cornsnake registry anyway, although I wouldn't be surprised if the owner does not want his breeders to be flagged as possible carriers for a bad gene. Mind you, if they are concerned for the industry, I would hope they would take a broader view.

I'd say save your money and get a new snake. And I'm sorry for you and your suffering animal; I gather you've had plenty of time to get attached to him.

-Sean

Actually if a person dies and the coroner does not feel the need to do an autopsy the family would have to pay for one. The exception to this would be if the person had been in a research study that did autopsies as part of their protocol. I am not sure if some teaching hospitals would absorb the cost.

And in terms of getting a vet school to foot the bill I think you would be out of luck. I had a garter that had an unknown lump and I offered her to a vet school and I was told that they don't take donations - if they were going to see her I would have to go their clinic and pay for care.


Jo

Did you receive the email I forwarded you from Connie (hopefully I got your email address correct)? She also suggested a vet school - the one in Florida.

I would be curious, although of course it won't help this poor guy. If it is what I have seen, it has been so rare (thankfully) that I am not sure what we would do if we did find out more about it. I don't know that I would want to stop breeding a really pretty bloodline if just one out of many hundreds of babies might develop a problem. Heck, the non-feeder incidence is more than that! Not sure what else anyone can do if it is genetic. But it would be nice to know - if it doesn't cost you a fortune to find out.

Please let us know what happens.