Help for the rest of us: Thread suggestion

Hey all,


I know that there are a lot of questions on this forum, especially in the pictures forum (should I have posted this there?) asking, "Is my corn an x or a y? a or b? m, n, or o?" So I thought of a possibly very helpful thread solution. Bear in mind that I can't find a bottle of ketchup in an otherwise empty fridge so if this thread exists and I didn't see it, my apologies!

I think it'd be nice to have a thread devoted to the purpose of clarifying how to tell the difference between morphs. I am /very/ unqualified to help much in the creation of said thread, but here's an idea of what I mean:




How can I tell if my corn is a...


Anery type A or Anery type B?
Type A usually has yellow, type B doesn't usually. <more extensive answer, pictures of typical A's and B's>


Ghost or Anery?
<blahblahblah, pics>

Amel or Sunglow?
Sunglows have very little to no white, while simple amel's may have any amount of white around their saddles.

Amel or Reverse Oketee?

Hypo or Normal?

Zigzag/aztec/zipper or just funky saddles?

Miami Phase or Normal?

Butter or Caramel?

Blizzard or Snow?

Snow or Bubblegum Snow?

Charcoal or Ghost?

Lavendar or Phantom?

Pewter or Lavendar?




The basic idea is not just to provide a detailed physical description of various morphs but to outline what makes them on one side of the line or the other. You could describe a ghost in a similar way to how you would describe a charcoal, yet there is some defining characteristic that makes a snake one or the other. This thread would really help people like me that have a vague idea (amels are reds and oranges, anerys are blacks and grays, normals are both, snows/blizzards are neither, pattern morphs are funky) but have trouble drawing the line. Is it because the snake is a shade lighter? The inside of the saddles aren't a solid color? The belly pattern is unique?




If this sounds like a reasonable idea to all of you, I think it'd be uber helpful. I tried to list some of what I thought were the most common questions above; I know there's more about things I can't even touch on. So, if we go through with this, anyone can post suggestions to add to the list (commonly confused morphs) and those of you who know what you're talking about, if you could post your thoughts on how to tell them apart. I'll compile them all into one nice easy to access thread and life will be easier. Yes, no, yes but differently? Let me know your thoughts.

Also of course, if we do this it would be fantastic and wonderful if people could provide pictures of "typical" corns for each morph discussed. Between a detailed description and pictures to compare our snakes to, us newbies should be a lot better off!


Thanks for your time with reading this at least, and please post with any comments, suggestions, and volunteering. Thanks!


PS I don't think I know how to work the poll so if that part doesn't work, ignore it!

To be perfectly honest, and I do not mean this to be condescending in ANY manner, if you spend enough time just looking at the pictures that are posted, you will very quickly get an "eye" for the more common morphs. There are also a few "specialties" that have very distinct characteristics, that I won't go into detail here, but overall, most of the very common morphs are readily identifiable through photographs, and with practice and through viewing LOADS of pictures, you'll soon find yourself knowing what is what...for the most part...

I think it's not a bad idea to have all of that information in one place, and it is. It's called the 2007 cornsnake morph guide. But sure, having it all in one place would be nice here as well. That said, having all of that information in one place would do little to preempt the questions to which you refer, because the people who ask those types are questions are generally uninterested in looking up the answer. If they were interested, as tyflier has pointed out, they would already have done so and found their answers.

A thread like what you are describing would take a heck of a long time to create. Besides, as it has already been mentioned, those that need to use it, won't. Heck , they don't use the other FAQ threads that Joe spent alot of time and thought into. The forum is still flooded with "My snake won't eat", "Can I put 2 snakes together" and "Is my snake going to shed" threads. I just wish that those asking what morph their snake is would at least try to get a half-way decent photo. A yellow, too dark, blurred 50 X 50 pixel photo of a snake that is 8 feet from the camera just doesn't cut it.

And I apologize if I'm a little cynical this morning. I just read a thread from a new member who is more than likely going to kill their cornsnake because they have no clue about its care and is having trouble "absorbing" the information that is being spoon-fed to them by a few, very patient members. And I can't even send them an e-mail to help them get a slight grasp on how this forum works.

Susan said:

A thread like what you are describing would take a heck of a long time to create. Besides, as it has already been mentioned, those that need to use it, won't. Heck , they don't use the other FAQ threads that Joe spent alot of time and thought into. The forum is still flooded with "My snake won't eat", "Can I put 2 snakes together" and "Is my snake going to shed" threads. I just wish that those asking what morph their snake is would at least try to get a half-way decent photo. A yellow, too dark, blurred 50 X 50 pixel photo of a snake that is 8 feet from the camera just doesn't cut it.

And I apologize if I'm a little cynical this morning. I just read a thread from a new member who is more than likely going to kill their cornsnake because they have no clue about its care and is having trouble "absorbing" the information that is being spoon-fed to them by a few, very patient members. And I can't even send them an e-mail to help them get a slight grasp on how this forum works.

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:bowdown: :bowdown:

Well said Susan...

I get a LOT of emails with "help me ID my snake" questions. And many have blurry photos that I can barely tell if it is a corn at all. So I know what you mean, Susan.

One thing that seems really difficult for new corn keepers is the variability of each type. If I tell them it is a normal, amel, etc, they keep telling me that their snake is much more (or less) yellow, red, or whatever, as compared to a photo they saw of a normal or amel. I think the only way for people to learn to ID for themselves is to see LOTS of photos (or real corns) of each type, and to see them MANY times, so they can begin to note the variability. They will probably have to spend some time doing this before they get good at it. Unfortunately, I don't see any easy shortcuts to this learning curve.

aww shucks, and here I thought I wouldn't have to learn any more!!! :grin01:

Susan said:

A thread like what you are describing would take a heck of a long time to create. Besides, as it has already been mentioned, those that need to use it, won't. Heck , they don't use the other FAQ threads that Joe spent alot of time and thought into. The forum is still flooded with "My snake won't eat", "Can I put 2 snakes together" and "Is my snake going to shed" threads. I just wish that those asking what morph their snake is would at least try to get a half-way decent photo. A yellow, too dark, blurred 50 X 50 pixel photo of a snake that is 8 feet from the camera just doesn't cut it.

And I apologize if I'm a little cynical this morning. I just read a thread from a new member who is more than likely going to kill their cornsnake because they have no clue about its care and is having trouble "absorbing" the information that is being spoon-fed to them by a few, very patient members. And I can't even send them an e-mail to help them get a slight grasp on how this forum works.

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I've a feeling I know which thread you mean. If I'm right I found that particular thread quite disturbing and had to stop reading it so I didn't overreact and give a rude shouty answer.

:-offtopic

Susan said:

And I apologize if I'm a little cynical this morning. I just read a thread from a new member who is more than likely going to kill their cornsnake because they have no clue about its care and is having trouble "absorbing" the information that is being spoon-fed to them by a few, very patient members. And I can't even send them an e-mail to help them get a slight grasp on how this forum works.

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Jeez, your exactly right. And by the way I already sent the "this is how the forum works" pm you mentioned. I just sent the person a link to the forum FAQ, you know the FAQ link at the top of the screen. And boy to I wish they'd listen and stop re-posting!!! Though I haven't given up on them, cause I really, really don't want them to post a thread titled "Okay, now he's dead" or something like that.

Where's the poll option "This has been mentioned before"???

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46183&highlight=morph+guide

blckkat said:

Where's the poll option "This has been mentioned before"???

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46183&highlight=morph+guide

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I was about to say that!

Okay, guys. (-: I know some newbies can be very aggrivating, and maybe after seeing that other thread I should have timed this one different so everybody wasn't all riled up about newbies.

But do be reasonable about it. Not all newbies are like that. Some of them, including me, read the FAQ's, spend hours looking through the forums absorbing information, and do searches before they ask their questions. Those newbies don't get any press because they don't annoy you, so it's natural to associate aggrivating newbies with all newbies. But that's not the case. (-: I'm still wondering about anery vs. ghost, even though I've done several searches and looked at tons of pictures. :shrug: Sometimes that isn't enough, sometimes we just really need a clear, concise blub saying "If it has this this and this characteristic, it's a ghost. If it has this and this, it's an anery."

So no, this won't be for people that won't read such things. It's for those of us that read most of the FAQs, certainly the ones relating to our questions, do searches, browse the forum for sometimes hours a day, and just want to make it easier to find clear distinctions between morphs. (-: Just to clear that up. I'm well aware that certain types of people won't read this whether it's there or not, but some of us would memorize it.


Also, someone mentioned that it would take a long time to compile such a list. As I said in my first post, I'm offering to put it together. If I could get maybe one, two, or three descriptions from each experienced member, I'm sure that would be more than enough and I would have lots of material to work with. (-: I need help with it, but I'm not asking any one person to do hours of work; just ten minutes maybe.


Finally, thanks for the link to the old thread. I haven't finished reading it yet (I never can bring myself to skip to the last pages of a thread, I have to read the whole thing and make sure questions I have weren't already answered, so it takes awhile) so I don't know what the conclusion was. I do see that he/she [I don't remember] had a very complicated and extensive list. My idea for this thread was more for just the basics; I wasn't planning on doing any pattern variations combined with colors (i.e., I'd show what an amel is, and what a zigzag is, but not an amel zigzag and anery zigzag and ghost zigzag and etc). I'm also more looking for the well established colors than some of the new strains that seem to be just entering the market, just because it seems it's harder to draw strong lines on some of those ones. Maybe not, I dunno. (-:


Thank you all for your responses, and I look forward to some more so I can have a better feel for if this will work out or not. I tried to address all the concerns brought up, please let me know if I missed one or more. Thanks!

Well, I do like the idea, but the only other problem (mentined earlier I think) is that every color varient has SOOO much variation. That can be over come if you put up really clear, straight forward, basic descriptions and pictures, but then there's the problem that anery and charcoal, for example, are so similar. You can tell them apart, but it is very, very hard and to simply put up a description of both, and even an idea of the differences would not be enough to show how to tell them apart and make it easy for newer cornsnake owners to tell the 2 apart.

I think the idea of the thread is good, and there is no reason not to start trying to compile it, if your willing to do the work. I will certainly give all the info I can for it, although I don't know how "expirienced" I am! :grin01:

Anyway, if you want some basic info I'd be glad to give it.

JollieMollie-

I would recommend, for you, to try and learn what components makeup a specific morph. This will help in indentification.

For example...an "Anery" is a snake that is lacking in red and orange pigments(easiest description possible). A "Ghost" is a combination of anerythrism and hypomelanism. Hypomelanism is a reduction in black pigment. So, an anery will be very darkly saddled, but lacking oranges and reds, and a ghost will be lacking oranges and reds, but also have a reduced black.

A "caramel" is a single recessive corn with lots of yellow, brown, and black, but very little (ifany) reds or oranges. An "Amber" is a combination of Caramel and Hypomelanism, so it will show a noticeable reduction in black pigment. A Butter is Caramel + Amelanism, so will show a complete lack of black pigment.

Once you know what each known single recessive gene does to a corn's coloration or pattern, it is MUCH easier to assume what a combination of 2, or 3, or 4 recessive genes will accomplish, though it is not 100%, it is pretty close...

The Corn Snake Morph Guide is an invaluable tool in this endeavor...

You can also look at the various morph galleries many breeders and other corn enthusiasts have on their websites. There's nothing like simply viewing multiple examples of each morph to get a good idea what they look like. Perhaps compiling a list of these galleries/websites would be a better task. Mine isn't complete, but a start:

http://www.williswildlifeenterprises-cornsnakes.com/MorphGuideHome.html

I don't think it's a bad idea, but I voted that it wasn't a good idea. Contradictory? Maybe, but the options were limited. The way I see it, by the time you really need to know these morph distinctions, you've figured out ways of finding out on your own. Creating a special place for this kind of thing here would be redundant. Serpenco.com is a great resource for comparing morphs. Performing searches in the photo gallery here would yield a tremendous amount of examples for most morphs. Many of the breeders on this site have websites of their own that are often linked in their signature areas. If you're still stumped, you can always ask questions in the morphs/cultivars subforum. These are only a few methods. :shrugs:

Just think, all these color combos from human tinkering. :crazy02:

suecornish said:

Just think, all these color combos from human tinkering. :crazy02:

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Really? I disagree...all we did was give the genes an opportunity to become homozygous and thrive, rather than remain heterozygous or be killed.

The genes are out there...always have been. They simply have never survived in a homozygous state long enough to be passed on successfully and repeatedly in the wild...I think ...

The amel gene isn't an "invention" of man. We simply provided a safe place where a homozygous amel snake would not be immediately visible and killed within minutes of hatching. At least...that is my understanding...

tyflier said:

Really? I disagree...all we did was give the genes an opportunity to become homozygous and thrive, rather than remain heterozygous or be killed.

The genes are out there...always have been. They simply have never survived in a homozygous state long enough to be passed on successfully and repeatedly in the wild...I think ...

The amel gene isn't an "invention" of man. We simply provided a safe place where a homozygous amel snake would not be immediately visible and killed within minutes of hatching. At least...that is my understanding...

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This was my first reaction too, but then I thought about it some more. Amel isn't an invention of man, and neither are the other mutant genes. But butter-stripes and hypo-lav-bloodreds would have been unlikely occurrences in the wild. Even single wild animals carrying these mutant genes heterozygously would be very unlikely.

Actually, Susan's idea makes the most sense. A list of sites and forums (or even relevent pages linked to within the sites and forums) that have multitudes of labelled photos, and maybe even descriptions, would provide HUGE numbers of examples, many more than could ever be amassed in a single place, addding them one by one. And why replicate that work when it has already been done in other places and can be referenced here?