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A change in direction on selling animals....

Rich Z

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First off, let me admit here that this malicious mixture of genetics and luck has just about driven me insane.

To give you an example, last night I pulled down a container of babies that was due to be set up in containers and fed. I checked the card and it said the clutch was the result of breeding Amber Motley to Amber possibly het for Motley. So when I pulled aside the paper towel to take a look at the expected Ambers and possibly Amber Motleys, what I saw instead was a group of Caramels with a few Ambers scattered in the mix. Huh?? So I looked up the female and took a look at her. She is DEFINITELY an Amber and came from the original stock of Caramels het Amber Motley that were produced from breeding Amber to Caramel Motley years back. She was bred by two Amber Motley males, both from the same project, so there is no possibility of my simply mistaking a GoldDust in that mixture. Ultra has never been introduced into the bloodlines I used for this project. Further, this was her first time breeding this year, so no possibility of retained sperm from last year, nor were any other males introduced to her, because I mark even failed breedings on the record cards.

So what the heck happened here?

I get beat to death by Hypos all of the time in relation to my Lavender and Crimson blood lines, but I was a bit surprised to have it lash out at me in the Amber line as well.

Further, in the direction where I am eventually heading with all this. I had another clutch that were the results of breeding animals that resulted from breeding Upper Keys to Silver Queen. I thought the combo of the Silver Queen and Upper Keys would make for an attractive looking animal, and was looking forward to the results. Well, out of that clutch of 14 or so, I got mostly all normal Upper Keys looking animals, a few Hypos, and NO anerythristics or Silver Queen (Ghosts) at all. None. Zip. Nada. So if I had sold these animals to someone else, right now they would likely be cussing me out thinking I had pulled a fast one of them and mislabeled those animals.

Basically I have put my reputation at risk at the whim of Murphy's Law with hets, and that makes me REAL uncomfortable.

So what do I do about it?

Well, in thinking about this for the last several days while working on my price list, I came to the conclusion that selling hets just wasn't really worth the headaches. Not just for the reputation risks, but also because the number of sheets of labels I have to maintain has just gotten out of hand. At the last few Expos we have done, I had to take my book of labels with me, and I had to fit that into a briefcase because the stack of labels as become HUGE! Matter of fact, even this year while setting up new babies, I was having to run over to the house several times a night to make up new labels because I have animals hatching out that are het for more and more genes, as well as different combos as well.

This has just gotten out of hand. This all coupled with the fact that I sell a lot of animals to wholesalers who really don't give a rip about het genes, has pretty much pointed the arrow down the road that I believe is best for me to go at this time.

So effective this year, I am no longer selling animals specified as being het for anything. Just fully VISUALS and to heck with whatever genes they may be carrying. However, I WILL be labeling those that are het for things that they are SUPPOSED to be, based on the parentage, until I run out of that stack of label sheets I have. But after they are gone, they will only be labeled as the visually expressed gene(s) and nothing else.

So what that means is that when someone orders something like a Lavender, yes, they may get one that is labeled as being het for Hypo Blood Red, or Caramel, or Motley, or Hypomelanism. Until I run out of those labels, at which time it will only be labeled as "Lavender".

Yes, I know some people won't like this policy, whereas others will because of the likelihood that they will be getting free het genes without the surcharge. But I think all things considered, this has to be the way I do this. Quite honestly, hets have never really sold all that well, and when they did, generally didn't command a much higher price than the visuals anyway. So why bother with it for the very few exceptions?

Sure as heck wish I had come to this conclusion BEFORE mostly getting my price list finished. Would have saved me a boatload of time.....

Anyway, just wanted to let you all know about my new policy and the reasoning behind it. I really did give this a lot of thought, but who knows what I will think about it three years from now?
 
I can't rep you Rich, I've tried...LOL
So it has to be a public rep....
Rich Z .112 reps. ( i get to give out Twelves now....Sometimes????...LOL)
Comment; You could of dealt with that a few ways....LOL......MIKE
 
I'm one for buying snakes based in their appearance, not what they can get me a few years down the line. So I guess I understand and agree with your new policy based on my personal preferances. But I bet theres going to be a lot of people miffed because they will not know if their lavender is het blood when they want to do a lavender blood project. I guess they will take their custom else where...?

I would rather just buy a lavender bloodred stripe in a few years instead of buying project animals, keeping back babies and breeding them. Why waste all the space for potentially 6-7 snakes on one project when I can just buy a lavender bloodred stripe? Well thats my theory anyway...

A LOT of people buy snakes based soley on hets. Thank goodness I couldn't care less either ;)
 
I'm one of those that buy for hets. I only have two that were not bought for what they carry genotypically as well as phenotypically. Both of those were bought because their colours were eye-catching. And since I'm gathering that you decided to also do away with pictures after the workload last year, I guess any SerpenCo stock coming into my collection will be coming from a second party and not the original.

But I do understand why you believe you need to take this step.
 
I don't know...I have three snakes in my collection that I bought for their hets- the normal het opal stripe, the lav stripe het amel and the bloodred stripe het snow. So for my two projects, one triple het and one quad het, I got in at $965 vs the $2350 I would have had to pay for homos. The $965 was already a huge leap in snake spending for me- I couldn't have afforded the homos. If there even were any available! Plus, when one or both of the pair have hets, you get a nice variety in the clutch. That drew me to both of these particular pairs. I could get all kinds of morphs that are not in my collection now.

I guess I understand your reasoning, though. Luckily, the snakes you have that I want are homos!
 
I can see WHY you'd decide to do this, Rich. But I think you'll be re-thinking this with some project animals. Caramel het Amel? Yeah, who cares. It's not worth the $5 - $10 het surcharge. But Lavender het Hypo, Blood, Stripe? I dunno. Those hets could double (or more) the cost of the animal. And I'm sure there's demand for those hets. Are you going to wholesale Keys het Hypo, Ashy as $10 normals?

I'm sure you've given the whole thing CONSIDERABLE thought. And there are marketing advantages to your new system too (as I'm sure you're aware). But you'll sure be at a disadvantage when it comes to the "roll-your-own" bargain-hunter market. But with your numbers, I guess there's a distinct trade-off between your time and the bottom line, so maybe this will be good for you. Time will tell. Good luck!
 
wierd results

Well,I dont know about anyone else but.... I have bred a pair of corns one year and got a nice looking clutch of animals from them,so since I liked the results, I have bred the exact pair of corns the next year and got a completely different result! Also I have bred a male that I suspected to be ultra or ultramel (bought it as that) to a snow female which should have produced ultramels and I got normals, snows and amels.Sold the pair off male as unknown hypo .That pair was bred again the next year and ultramels were produced! So that just dont make sense! The more I breed corns with various hets the more I scratch my head wondering what is going on!
 
Elle mentioed..

I would rather just buy a lavender bloodred stripe in a few years instead of buying project animals, keeping back babies and breeding them. Why waste all the space for potentially 6-7 snakes on one project when I can just buy a lavender bloodred stripe? Well thats my theory anyway...

I love customers like you Elle.. Of course when I hold back clutches for future breeding, generally speaking a few of the homo animals will more than pay off what it has cost me in the two to three years of rasing them, thus allowing me to catapulting into more projects etc..

Regards... Tim of T and J
 
Rich needs to sell us all amel-anery-charcoal-hypo-lava-lavender-sunkissed-dilute-cinder-caramel bloodred motleys.

Once we buy those, then we can test-mate our other Serpencos to them, and find out what hets they have - saving him the labelling and getting us a lovely mixed clutch that answers all of our genetics questions. So what's the price on your list for that ultimate white snake, Rich? :)
 
I've always been into the hets and curious as to what they can form when mixed..but when I'm out buying a snake..usually I'll just buy the one that looks most appealing to me..then I'll worry about what kind of hets I can form later on...I know this is the backwards way of doing it..but so far once I do get into breeding I'll hopefully have some nice normals het for anery and some nice anerys het for zig zag, motley, and stripe...so that's all well and good for me...plus I would like to get a male snow sometime soon so I can also see what Maize is het for..as I'm sure she must have something more in her then just normal...but we'll see..

but getting back to your point rich...I can understand all the headache you must be going through and I give you props for keeping up with it all for as long as you have. And hey..if I ever buy snakes from you..I have nooo complaints about getting a snake with a few extra unknown hets..hehehe :)
 
I can entirely see where you're coming from Rich - I can't begin to imagine how you cope with what you do.

However, I've bought a pair of GoldDust het Mots from you - they were cheaper than the full GoldDust Mots, and at UK prices that really did make a difference.

Don't suppose I'll be buying any more as I'm at capacity for Corns (at a paltry 14!), so future purchasing isn't an issue for me. However, a Corn with a couple of unknown hets could really cause issues for someone working on a specific project, that turns out unexpected results three years after purchasing. Then again, I guess they have the choice of purchasing elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of people will be happy with "free" hets.

Just my two cents.
 
I mean I am sure you would let the buyer know that the snake could be het for other things right? Or are you just gonna sell it if they seem to just like the look?
 
Elle mentioed..



I love customers like you Elle.. Of course when I hold back clutches for future breeding, generally speaking a few of the homo animals will more than pay off what it has cost me in the two to three years of rasing them, thus allowing me to catapulting into more projects etc..

Regards... Tim of T and J

Shall I start saving now for your first clutch of lavender bloodred stripes? I would rather pay more for an animal thats already well established in the UK but I know you will give me mates rates and importing wouldn't be difficult these days with the amount of people bringing over yankee corns ;)
 
Rich,
I'll come right out and say that I think you are making a BIG mistake.

I think that selling on a "PURELY VISUAL" basis is a BAD idea. What happens when something looks like one thing, and turns out to be another?
I think that if you think that there are headaches now, there will be bigger headaches, when the hets are unknown. Selling for homo, is fine, until the visuals become too close to call. How will you know a Silver Queen from a ghost from an Anery Ultra, from a ... (well you get the idea).

Hets are a roll of the dice, to begin with, and ANYONE dealing with hets should know this. Personally I view hets as a 50/50 chance. You state that you are worried about your good name, and the good name of your company. I think you are moving in the wrong direction to protect it. I think that maybe hiring staff member or 2 would be a better idea. What were your monetary profits over the years from hets from the lines of Bloodred, Lavender, and Ashy? (Hypothetically) Would the profits alone not have paid for a "bookkeeper" or 2? (As an independent contractor).

You are concerned, about 1 clutch of Amber motleys? That you could have "Hypothetically" Pre-sold? That did not turn out right. What if the clutch of eggs had been infertile? Same deal.

I believe that a "No guarantee on hets" or something to that effect, OR NO Pre sales? Or... I think these would be, Much better policies.

Just my .02¢
 
Rich:

Are you planning to stop selling hets for the high end new morphs - like ashy - or soes this just apply to most of the "run of the mill" stuff?

KJ
 
Well I'm glad I bought the amel stripe het caramel from you last year now! I wanted it for the het. I wouldn't have wanted an amel stripe that wasn't het. She's doing great BTW.
I know it's a lot of work and you have a lot of snakes to keep track of but I agree you should either hire someone (I'd work for snakes if I lived closer LOL) or just state no guarantees on hets in your terms.
 
I think you'll do what works for you, as you should. There will be some buyers who will go looking to smaller breeders because they're really interested in hets. But, there are also buyers who go looking to smaller breeders because their prices are a little lower, and their shipping charges lower, or because they can get a picture of the clutch and hand-pick their baby. You might lose some portion of your business because of this decision, but only you know what portion of your business it will be, and only you can decide how that weighs out for you.

And of course, even if this policy goes into effect, there's nothing preventing any one of us sending you an email asking if you have any known het ashy corns you'd sell as such.
 
Rich:

Are you planning to stop selling hets for the high end new morphs - like ashy - or soes this just apply to most of the "run of the mill" stuff?

KJ

I think this is the question that alot of us have. Like Dean and KJ mentioned, it is hard to afford the really high end stuff, so we have to settle for hets. For the low end stuff (homo animals < $200) who cares but if homo animals are selling for much more than that it would probably be worth while to list the hets.

If you have any hypos or amels het for ashy, I wouldnt mind paying $15 for them.n:licklips:
 
Thanks for the input, but I think some of you don't realize the entire situation. Connie and I are getting older and the workload we have been maintaining just is not possible to continue. Earlier this spring I was laid up in the hospital for only a couple of days and it dumped ALL the workload onto Connie, which she was fortunately able to do because of the lucky (comparatively) timing. At either breeding season, or right now with babies hatching out that need to be sexed and labeled, she would have been completely over her head. And there is absolutely no one I could call on who could possibly handle those sorts of details. So basically, with bad timing, such a thing as an extended hospital layover could put us down for the count. And not just ME going to the hospital. Connie does so much around here that if she were laid up, it would be just as bad as my being laid up. I honestly could not do everything that we BOTH do around here to keep things running.

I would be extremely foolish to continue thinking that this just cannot happen. So it's either cut down the work load in any way possible, or get taken out of this completely by something that forcefully takes me out of it. This is one method I have chosen to cut back the work load. Some will like it, and others won't. Sorry, but there really is little choice in the matter. Please trust me when I say that unless you are in my shoes, you probably can't comprehend the total situation. I seriously doubt anyone who is 30 years old can grasp the changes in life when you start getting past the half century mark. I really like working as much as I do with the corn snakes, but not enough to watch it kill myself and/or my wife in the process.

As for hiring people, well one of these days I will write a book on the trials and tribulations of just trying to hire people to take care of the adult corms. Hiring someone to do "detail" work to handle aspects of the business that I have to handle is not something I am likely to entertain. I have already had workers come REAL close to closing down the business by the mistakes they have made. The idea of hiring someone to handle that sort of thing as a book keeper for the details around here is laughable in a very sad way.

Sorry guys, it's just not possible for Connie and myself to kid ourselves that we can continue the workload we have been under for what seems like forever. So this is a necessary step in a transition that is inevitable.

Seriously, you all really didn't think I would live forever, did you? :sobstory:

Besides, it's only about hets. Just about everything going out of here for the last couple of decades whether labeled as such or not were quite likely het for something anyway. I'm just making it official policy now that I'm just not concerned with them. If I lose some sales because of it, then that will certainly have the slack taken up by the wholesale orders. Honestly, I get dealers ALL of the time wanting to take the het stuff if I will lower the price to the visual only. And they don't mind if I take off the labels to identify the hets. Which quite likely means I will be able to sell out early and maybe have a few months with some REAL down time. Seriously, I have gotten to the point where selling something right away for $20 is MUCH better than keeping it around for 9 months and selling it for $60. Both Connie and I are just tired of working nearly every day on the calendar. We haven't had a vacation for more than 3 days since the mid '80s.

It's just time I started taking steps for us to live a little (while we still can) rather than work all the darn time.

Darn, I really should have put this time into my price list.... But I felt I needed to explain some things further. Certainly rambled more than I had intended though.... See what I mean about this old age stuff? :awcrap:
 
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It's just time I started taking steps for us to live a little (while we still can) rather than work all the darn time.
As you should! :) Because once it's all over...you certainly can't take the snakes with you! You'll never make everyone happy, so you need to do what is best for you...and it sounds as if you've made a relatively sane compromise for yourself. I envy your level of energy with all of the breeding & hatching & so forth going on, and I am one of those 30-year olds! I hope that you actually get to go on one of those vacations that you & Connie sound like you really need, soon...:cheers:
 
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