Yay Government health care:(

[danielle]

I have had two c-sections and they didn't raise my insurance, and in my State when you are too "rich" for Medicaid and too poor to afford insurance the State gives you insurance for a very reduced priced.
The issue with this type of reform is it goes against the American dream. Here you can be rich, poor, or middle class it's your choice though not the governments. Those who become educated and work hard tend to end up with jobs that cover insurance and because taxes are lower than abroad cost of life is reasonable. I know this statement sounds crazy since inflation is killing us but the big picture is life abroad costs 4 times what it costs here due to insane taxes even with inflation.

In our country government funds go to infrastructures, the military, education, and various programs that encourage business ownership and careers that keep our economic wheels turning. We get paid and in turn we spend into the economy giving back to other businesses keeping the doors open- we are a capitalist country this is how we make money and grow. Universal health care in a socialist country is different. It pays for the health care, but people pay higher taxes, earn less, and therefore spend less than Americans keeping their economy stable... but stagnant. Economic growth is slower and you see more poor to lower middle class citizens than rich because the government needs so much money to run that comes from the working class. There are fewer business owners abroad, fewer businesses period, and fewer resources to go to other programs which is not a good thing

We are in a major recession and the only way for a capitalist country to improve this is to have more money to put into the economy and for more businesses to open and thrive. This health care plan will make it harder on even huge companies to thrive let alone your mom and pop shops which have been the cornerstone of this country. Businesses will close or downsize, our paychecks will dwindle with higher taxes and lower wages, and we will still not have enough money to give people the same standard of care they are accustom to now. Health care should be regulated for cost by the government, but not taken over.

I also have a major issue with congress not wanting this same plan for themselves if it is so great and disagree its not about the health care itself. Of course its about the health care otherwise there would be no incentive for them to keep and pay for their private plans right?

 

[tyflier]

I have had two c-sections and they didn't raise my insurance, and in my State when you are too "rich" for Medicaid and too poor to afford insurance the State gives you insurance for a very reduced priced.

Sounds like government run insurance to me. Are you saying that it's working out in your state?

The issue with this type of reform is it goes against the American dream. Here you can be rich, poor, or middle class it's your choice though not the governments. Those who become educated and work hard tend to end up with jobs that cover insurance and because taxes are lower than abroad cost of life is reasonable. I know this statement sounds crazy since inflation is killing us but the big picture is life abroad costs 4 times what it costs here due to insane taxes even with inflation.

C'mon, most of this is a crock, and you should know it. There are countless variables that effect a persons financial status. SOME people are lazy. SOME people have struggled to get what they got. But these are not the only outcomes.

There are millions of people in this country that got taken for a ride during the economic collapse brought about by uinregulated financial corporations playing god with our money.

There are millions of people born in the gutter, and struggle every day of their lives to make ends meet, and no matter how hard they work, they never get above lower class status.

There are millions of people born into "high society" with a silver spoon in their mouths, loads of "entitlement", and have no idea what the meaning of the word "work" is because they have never had to earn a damn thing in their lives.

Yes...this is the land of opportunity. It's also the land of "it takes money to make money". Not everyone that is down on their luck is there by choice. That's just an insult.

In our country government funds go to infrastructures, the military, education, and various programs that encourage business ownership and careers that keep our economic wheels turning. We get paid and in turn we spend into the economy giving back to other businesses keeping the doors open- we are a capitalist country this is how we make money and grow.

How's that working out for us? Not very well, as far as I can see. Unregulated corporate spending, unregulated investment practices, inflated profit margins and creating fake profits from real debt...yea, that unregulated capitalism thing has worked wonders...

Universal health care in a socialist country is different. It pays for the health care, but people pay higher taxes, earn less, and therefore spend less than Americans keeping their economy stable... but stagnant. Economic growth is slower and you see more poor to lower middle class citizens than rich because the government needs so much money to run that comes from the working class. There are fewer business owners abroad, fewer businesses period, and fewer resources to go to other programs which is not a good thing

Universal healthcare in democratic countries, however, seems to be doing just fine. And since this is a democratic country, a more accurate comparison would be that, not some made-up comparison to some dreamed-up idea that the US will become socialist in nature. That's just propoganda and parnoia.

We are in a major recession and the only way for a capitalist country to improve this is to have more money to put into the economy and for more businesses to open and thrive.

Right...because dumping money into a pit is alwaeys a good idea...

What we need is mandated regulatory controls that prevent the rich from robbing the poor to improve their own bottom line. Regulations protect the people. Screw the corporations.

This health care plan will make it harder on even huge companies to thrive let alone your mom and pop shops which have been the cornerstone of this country. Businesses will close or downsize, our paychecks will dwindle with higher taxes and lower wages, and we will still not have enough money to give people the same standard of care they are accustom to now. Health care should be regulated for cost by the government, but not taken over.

It isn't being taken over. It is being regulated, and the government is providing a new option. And all your economic woes are already a reality, and it has nothing to do with HCR...again...

I also have a major issue with congress not wanting this same plan for themselves if it is so great and disagree its not about the health care itself. Of course its about the health care otherwise there would be no incentive for them to keep and pay for their private plans right?

You can keep and pay for YOUR private plan, too. The only thing the elected officials have given themselves an exemption from is the mandatory nature of the insurance incentives. I agree that congress should not make regulations from which they exempt. But let's at least be realistic about what they are exempt from.

Every citizen, at this point in time, still has the option to keep their private insurance, and pay for their own plans, as they currently do. The biggest change in current private insurance practices will be regulations on rate increases, and strict regulations on coverage and denials. Of course, if your insurance company is robbing people, they will fail. If they are a reputable and respectable insurance company, you shouldn't see many changes, because they will already fall in line with the majority of the regulations.

So...what's all the fuss about?:shrugs:

 

[Nanci]

My issue is fear of the unknown- the as yet unspecified or decided. I have my own healthcare as a benefit where I work. I like it, I don't want to change it, I don't want to lose it. I fear that because of this legislation my current healthcare situation is going to change, for the worse. I'm not so much worried about paying more as I am about rationing. Or waiting.

 

[danielle]

Chris State insurance is certainly government run health care just on a State and not federal level, and it is not given to every person meaning it is far less costly than what our government is about to take on. Helping the minority who need it while allowing others to have a choice is what makes these state programs possible because they aren't funding everyone meaning there is more money available for those who are elderly, disabled, or temporarily down on their luck- now there will be less. Why not have a federal option, but still ALLOW those with private insurance to keep things as they are...congress gets to afterall.

I disagree with your interpretation of the variables that affect financial status as well. I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth yet I work to earn my living. Sure my trust fund paid for my house and undergrad degree, but after that if I don;t bust my butt I have nothing. College is an option available to everyone not just me. I take out loans to pay for my current graduate degree, work to pay my mortgage, bills, and support my kids, and at the end of the day after work, cleaning, cooking, my homework, and my kids I am tired, but satisfied knowing my effort is the variable in my ability to be middle class, insured, and financially stable. My husband lost his job last winter due to the economy and finding a new job was hard...but we survived with the a little less to go around thats called life

I'm not familiar with the pit you speak of though I assume your talking about grocery stores, restaurants, malls, shops, gas stations, and all the other businesses we utilize for our survival and pleasure. Yes we the people must spend at these establishments to keep them open and available for our use and in turn we acquire life's necessities. I guess we could farm and hunt for our food, give up our cars, and make our own clothes, but I personally have better things to do and kinda like all of our American conveniences in their abundance. I do however, agree the Bush administration allowed unregulated corporations to put us in the predicament we are in now, but some blame goes back to the people who took out loans knowing they couldn't afford them as well- common sense is priceless

It does take money to make money as I have said though I never insinuated universal health care put us into the mess we are in now- I do say it will deepen our debt and make it harder for us to get back on our feet financially. I'm not sure why you think the government is not taking over our health care system and calling it an option- mandatory means must have- not optional.

I guess we will see where this program takes our economy, how much plans will cost individually, and how our quality of care is effected. I guess I'm just not as optimistic as you and feel our country can not support such a widespread program while providing timely and effective care. I see hospitals downsizing or closing, medical equipment, drugs, and preventative care being rationed, and fewer doctors and nurses per person. I see fewer small businesses starting up, established small businesses closing down, and unemployment rates rising. I see the poor and uninsured becoming poorer because the governments version of affordable health care will still be a financial burden and I see the States backing away from providing their own health care programs that sufficiently serve these people. I think your a smart guy Chris and agree with you on most things which is why it surprises me you think this program will be good for you and your family. If we want to earn more businesses have to earn more to pay us higher wages- if businesses have to spend more they will hire fewer people and pay them less not take a profit loss you have to know that?

 

[tyflier]

Chris State insurance is certainly government run health care just on a State and not federal level, and it is not given to every person meaning it is far less costly than what our government is about to take on. Helping the minority who need it while allowing others to have a choice is what makes these state programs possible because they aren't funding everyone meaning there is more money available for those who are elderly, disabled, or temporarily down on their luck- now there will be less. Why not have a federal option, but still ALLOW those with private insurance to keep things as they are...congress gets to afterall.

Uhh...that IS what's happening. Private insurance isn't being "done away with"...it's being regulated. You CAN keep your private insurance. The main difference is going to be in federal regulations controlling their denial and pre-existing conditions practices, and their ridiculous cost increase percentages.

Nobody is taking away your private options...they are just being forced to follow federal regulations. And no matter how many people say otherwise...that is part of the Federal Government's job...to regulate big business, and ensure fair and equal practices.

I disagree with your interpretation of the variables that affect financial status as well.

Disagreeing with them doesn't invalidate them...

I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth yet I work to earn my living. Sure my trust fund paid for my house and undergrad degree, but after that if I don;t bust my butt I have nothing. College is an option available to everyone not just me. I take out loans to pay for my current graduate degree, work to pay my mortgage, bills, and support my kids, and at the end of the day after work, cleaning, cooking, my homework, and my kids I am tired, but satisfied knowing my effort is the variable in my ability to be middle class, insured, and financially stable. My husband lost his job last winter due to the economy and finding a new job was hard...but we survived with the a little less to go around thats called life

Thanks for proving my point. Most of your "leg up" was paid for by a trust fund. Your house, your education, your "safety net" were all paid for by that silver spoon. there is nothing wrong with that, to be certain, as I am quite sure your parents worked very hard to be able to provide that for you. But that doesn't mean it isn't an advantage that is only possible for a very elite and select few people in this country.

And contrary to popular belief, college is NOT an option "for everyone". It is an option for most, but certainly not for all. There are people that simply cannot afford to pay for a college education, and there are people that simply do not possess the intellectual ability for a higher degree. That doesn't make them lazy, and it usually isn't because of poor choices.

I'm not familiar with the pit you speak of though I assume your talking about grocery stores, restaurants, malls, shops, gas stations, and all the other businesses we utilize for our survival and pleasure. Yes we the people must spend at these establishments to keep them open and available for our use and in turn we acquire life's necessities.

What does that have to do with government spending? The mom and pop shops are not the ones that got a big bailout. The local stores are not the ones getting HUGE tax breaks and credits. These smaller, localized shops and stores are supported in their entirety by local customers...not the government. So...how does that fit in?

I guess we could farm and hunt for our food, give up our cars, and make our own clothes, but I personally have better things to do and kinda like all of our American conveniences in their abundance.

I really don't see what this has to do with the current topic, or health care reform at all. But I'm glad you were able to get it off your chest. :shrugs:

I do however, agree the Bush administration allowed unregulated corporations to put us in the predicament we are in now, but some blame goes back to the people who took out loans knowing they couldn't afford them as well- common sense is priceless

Is it the people that were given the loans or the banks that leveraged those loans at nine times their value, and reported those debts as profits that caused the problem. Let's really think about that for a minute...

When a company takes on $10,000,000 in mortgage loans, and claims those loans as $90,000,000 profit projected every year over the length of, say a 25 year mortgage...that is an inflated value, and does nothing but raise the percieved worth of a company that in reality, hasn't collected more than 5% of that "profit".

But let's blame the people that bought a house. Yea...that's a good idea...

It does take money to make money as I have said though I never insinuated universal health care put us into the mess we are in now- I do say it will deepen our debt and make it harder for us to get back on our feet financially. I'm not sure why you think the government is not taking over our health care system and calling it an option- mandatory means must have- not optional.

It is mandatory to be insured. It is NOT mandatory to use the government offered public option. You are following snippets and propoganda, instead of listening to the whole story, as it were.

Yes...it will be mandatory to carry insurance in one form or another by 2014. However, private insurance companies are still available to the public, along with a government plan.

The single-payer option was removed from the proposal a long time ago...

I guess we will see where this program takes our economy, how much plans will cost individually, and how our quality of care is effected. I guess I'm just not as optimistic as you and feel our country can not support such a widespread program while providing timely and effective care. I see hospitals downsizing or closing, medical equipment, drugs, and preventative care being rationed, and fewer doctors and nurses per person. I see fewer small businesses starting up, established small businesses closing down, and unemployment rates rising. I see the poor and uninsured becoming poorer because the governments version of affordable health care will still be a financial burden and I see the States backing away from providing their own health care programs that sufficiently serve these people. I think your a smart guy Chris and agree with you on most things which is why it surprises me you think this program will be good for you and your family. If we want to earn more businesses have to earn more to pay us higher wages- if businesses have to spend more they will hire fewer people and pay them less not take a profit loss you have to know that?

You need to seperate the economic downturn from HCR. They are not related. Businesses are going under, people are losing their jobs and homes, and our economy is going to crap. This started before HCR, and will continue after HCR. One is NOT causative of the other...they are wholly unrelated.

I don't know if HCR will help or hurt our economy. Nobody knows. There are only opinions. I don't mistakenly think that HCR will be a godsend gift that will miraculously cure all my woes and make life suddenly wonderful. Nobody that I know is foolish enough to believe that.

The only thing that I know for certain is that the current state of private insurance does not satisfy the needs of all the citizens of this country. Hopefully, this brand-new idea(to the US, at least), will bridge that gap. I can't say if it will work or not, because I don't know. I am, however, very excited for the potential, as I believe that it can't get much worse than it already is.

What doesn't help is propoganda spreading like wildfire, creating a scare in people, and causing people to be against HCR simply because they don't understand it. The propoganda tactics being used by anti-reform congressmen is one of the most damaging campaign tactics I've seen in a long time. It's fear mongering at it's heart and soul.

 

[tyflier]

Good Night Chris, sleep tight. Tell your buddies about how you beat up the big bad Republican. Tell your boss too, just before he lays you off due to insufficient funds.

I really don't understand why this is such a personal thing for you, Wade. You have an opinion, which you support with "points". I have a different opinion, which I support with equally valid "counter-points". This isn't between you and me, it isn't about you and me, and it shouldn't become an argument between you and me.

There is no reason to try and turn what is otherwise a very reasonable discussion into a personal smash fest between you and I...again...

 

[wade]

I have been away from my computer all morning but I see the problem has not been resolved. I don't feel this is something personal Chris nor do I see that it is between you and me. .Perhaps that is just the way you perceive it.

I see that you have carried on quite well in my absence.

 

[tyflier]

I have been away from my computer all morning but I see the problem has not been resolved. I don't feel this is something personal Chris nor do I see that it is between you and me. .Perhaps that is just the way you perceive it.

I see that you have carried on quite well in my absence.

Well, I suppose it is my perception of your sarcasm everytime you tell me to go to bed, or everytime you infer that I am arguing for the sake of argument, as you have done in your last statement above.

Or maye it is simply that the majority of your posts in this topic don't have anything to say about the topic, and are only personally directed posts towards me. It seems that you have given up on a discussion of the topic, and would prefer to direct all of your comments to me, personally, about my bed time, my boss, and my ability to have a pleasant discourse with others in your absence.

But maybe that's just me? :shrugs:

 

[wade]

I guess its just you Chris.

 

[[email protected]]

I have quite a lot of experience with government run health care. Both Medicare and Medicaid are so totally screwed up I can't imagine, without a sense of horror, what's in store now that health care reform has passed.

By the way, I pretty much agree with wade and Neal Boortz on this issue.

Dave Knorr, D.O

Family Physician for 13 years

 

[wade]

I have quite a lot of experience with government run health care. Both Medicare and Medicaid are so totally screwed up I can't imagine, without a sense of horror, what's in store now that health care reform has passed.

By the way, I pretty much agree with wade and Neal Boortz on this issue.

Dave Knorr, D.O

Family Physician for 13 years

Hey, It's great to hear the opinion of someone who has actually worked with the system and knows what they are talking about.

 

[danielle]

Yes Chris people can keep their private insurance however, most will make the switch because they are insured through their employment who will drop their private contracts and switch to a government funded system hoping its cheaper and wanting the tax breaks that are sure to come for companies who "come to their senses". These same employers will now pay the government instead of private businesses taking money AWAY from the private sector. Doctors will do one of two things in response 1. Except the reduced government rate like they do with medicaid/medicare and lose money eventually pushing doctors out of practice because the bulk of people will take the government option through their employers, or 2. Stay privatized, see fewer patients, and eventually also walk away from practices because between paying off med school, mal practice insurance, and paying for employers proft margins will be in whole reduced or completely negated. Either way by 2014 we will have fewer doctors and nurses and if the government bail out for banks and lenders pissed you off just wait until their bailing out practices

The mom and pop shops are not completely exempt from having to offer health care which means their cost to do business will rise affecting the cost of the items they sell, the wages they can offer, and how many employees they can afford to hire. This means lower wages and higher unemployment rates directly related to the new health care expenses they will have to take on and the higher taxes they will have to pay because people now have less incentive to go out on a limb and venture into a small business. I know you hate big business, but where do you think these small mom and pop shops source their products from? We need both types of business for our economy to rebound and when one suffers so does the other. Big business takes a hit they raise distribution and product costs so that mom and pop have to pay more for the same products passing that expense off to us. We buy less as consumers when prices rise meaning mom and pop sell less- how are you missing this effect here? When mom and pop sell less they employ fewer employees, and if that doesn't carry them through they close down. Now big business loses a consumer and the chain effect goes on and on. In foreign countries this is why their are fewer citizen owned small businesses that thrive because its too costly to get into and riskier to get out of. Their governments remain rich but regular people like you and me make less.

I'll say it again I don't think the HCR is currently responsible for our economic downturn did you read that last time? I said IT IS GOING TO INTENSIFY THE ISSUES OF INFLATION AND UNEMPLOYMENT- not that it has caused in whole

You have to know when our government spends more on any particular program it raises our taxes and when our tax dollars aren't enough the government will begin to leverage inflation and interest rates to recoup additional monies. That means our cost of life increases and our take home decreases. You complain about being broke now how is bringing home any less and everything costing more going to help you?

 

[wstphal]

I have quite a lot of experience with government run health care. Both Medicare and Medicaid are so totally screwed up I can't imagine, without a sense of horror, what's in store now that health care reform has passed.

By the way, I pretty much agree with wade and Neal Boortz on this issue.

Dave Knorr, D.O

Family Physician for 13 years

Welcome to the forum! There are a few other physicians around that I know of.

 

[tricksterpup]

Welcome to the forum! There are a few other physicians around that I know of.

When did Wade become a Proctologist? :sidestep:

 

[tyflier]

Yes Chris people can keep their private insurance however, most will make the switch because they are insured through their employment who will drop their private contracts and switch to a government funded system hoping its cheaper and wanting the tax breaks that are sure to come for companies who "come to their senses". These same employers will now pay the government instead of private businesses taking money AWAY from the private sector.

But wait...isn't that the founding principle of capitalism? Seems to me that giving people choices based on services offered and the price paid for said services is precisely what capitalism is all about. If people are going to make the switch because it's better...what's the problem? If employers make the sweitch because it's cheaper...what's the problem?

I don't see a problem with people choosing to switch. It's a far cry from it being "shoved down our throats" or the US becoming "socialist" in it's principles. If people switch because the government programs are more affordable and provide a better level of care, maybe it will cause large insurance corporations to nrecognize that they aren't doing it right, and cause them to change their ways?

Afterall...that's the sum and substance of capitalism...competition.

Doctors will do one of two things in response 1. Except the reduced government rate like they do with medicaid/medicare and lose money eventually pushing doctors out of practice because the bulk of people will take the government option through their employers, or 2. Stay privatized, see fewer patients, and eventually also walk away from practices because between paying off med school, mal practice insurance, and paying for employers proft margins will be in whole reduced or completely negated. Either way by 2014 we will have fewer doctors and nurses and if the government bail out for banks and lenders pissed you off just wait until their bailing out practices

And you know this how? Under what system of health care has this been proven to be the case? What century was it that this was tried in America, failed to the extent you predict, and given you the grounds and reasoning to make such leaps in logic?

Like I said in my last post, NONE OF US knows ANYTHING about the outcome of this legislation because it is something that has never been done in this country.

This section of your post is based on little more than best guesses and propoganda.

The mom and pop shops are not completely exempt from having to offer health care which means their cost to do business will rise affecting the cost of the items they sell, the wages they can offer, and how many employees they can afford to hire. This means lower wages and higher unemployment rates directly related to the new health care expenses they will have to take on and the higher taxes they will have to pay because people now have less incentive to go out on a limb and venture into a small business. I know you hate big business, but where do you think these small mom and pop shops source their products from? We need both types of business for our economy to rebound and when one suffers so does the other. Big business takes a hit they raise distribution and product costs so that mom and pop have to pay more for the same products passing that expense off to us. We buy less as consumers when prices rise meaning mom and pop sell less- how are you missing this effect here? When mom and pop sell less they employ fewer employees, and if that doesn't carry them through they close down. Now big business loses a consumer and the chain effect goes on and on. In foreign countries this is why their are fewer citizen owned small businesses that thrive because its too costly to get into and riskier to get out of. Their governments remain rich but regular people like you and me make less.

I'm missing the effect because what you are describing is not grounded in reality. I say this because there is no accurate way to predict how this will effect small businesses. This entire doomsday scenario is based completely and wholly on assumptions, just like you medical doomsday scenario.

I'm not saying you're wrong for being fearful of what might be. I'm saying that you cannot know that this "will happen", because you have no idea. It's never been tried.

Here's a scenario that is just likely, and just as reasonable to assume...

Employees of mom and pop shops with no health care suddenly find themselves able to afford regular check-ups and routine preventative medicine, which makes the workforce generally stronger, providing fewer sick days, a stronger base of employees, and stronger shops.

It is also just as reasonable to assume that the mom and pop shops that decide to offer employee benefits through the government run program find themselves providing better service to their employees, and recieving better service in return, creating a better working environment, which inevitably leads to higher sales, better customer satisfactio0n, and an overall healthier economy.

You might call me "foolish" for thinking this is possible, but the reality is, my scenarios are JUST as likely as your doomsday scenarios.

the ultimate truth...WE DON'T KNOW...

[quot]I'll say it again I don't think the HCR is currently responsible for our economic downturn did you read that last time? I said IT IS GOING TO INTENSIFY THE ISSUES OF INFLATION AND UNEMPLOYMENT- not that it has caused in whole [/quote]
Again...how do you know this? How is it possible that you have such keen insight that you can fo9resee such an incredible downturn to our entire way of life and existence, but our elected officials are so thick headed that they never concieved of this possibility in writing the bill?

I',m not saying you're wrong, I'm ONLY saying that there is no way to make ANY reasonably accurate predictions, because it's never been tried in this country.

You have to know when our government spends more on any particular program it raises our taxes and when our tax dollars aren't enough the government will begin to leverage inflation and interest rates to recoup additional monies. That means our cost of life increases and our take home decreases. You complain about being broke now how is bringing home any less and everything costing more going to help you?

I don't complain about the taxes I pay to live where I live. I don't complain about how much money I make. I don't complain about "being broke". The only thing you've heard me complain about is that I cannot afford to pay the current rates to insure me and my family through private insurance companies.

That's the only thing I complained about. And lucky for me, that will soon change...

 

[tyflier]

Hey, It's great to hear the opinion of someone who has actually worked with the system and knows what they are talking about.

We heard from a lot of them during the campagning for this bill. And the latest trends and "polls" showed a vast majority of public and private health care providers were in support of HCR.

Or don't those people that actually worked with the system count? You only count the ones you agree with?

 

[wade]

Don't make this personal Chris. I think the gentleman stated his opinion clearly and I thanked him. Maybe you could reply to his comment. How well does the government handle Medicare and Medicaid? Is the price tag associated with those government programs what they thought it would be? How do the doctors and patients involved in those programs rate this serves that the gov is providing?

 

[tyflier]

Don't make this personal Chris. I think the gentleman stated his opinion clearly and I thanked him. Maybe you could reply to his comment. How well does the government handle Medicare and Medicaid? Is the price tag associated with those government programs what they thought it would be? How do the doctors and patients involved in those programs rate this serves that the gov is providing?

It's not personal, Wade. I was addressing your "point". You said it was nice to hear from someone that worked in the industry. I kindly pointed out that we heard from the vast majority of healthcare providers working in the system. I than asked what the criteria was in order for their opinions to "count"...

Truth is...I have no idea how medicaid and medicare are operating. No idea of the projected cost vs. the total cost. No idea of the satisfaction ratings from both providers and recipients. Never claimed to have those answers.

I'm also not making wild predictions and creating doomsday scenarios based on information that is not available to me...:shrugs:

I didn't address his opinion because I have no idea what his personal experience is, nor do I have any information to support a contradictory opinion. Not having this kind of information makes me unable to comment and form an opinion. His personal experiences have led him to his own personal conclusions.

I didn't see him spouting off about all the "fools" that disagree with him, nor did I see him making wild, doomsday predictions. If he had, I might have addressed those points. But he didn't...

 

[wstphal]

I kindly pointed out that we heard from the vast majority of healthcare providers working in the system. I than asked what the criteria was in order for their opinions to "count"...

Truth is...I have no idea how medicaid and medicare are operating. No idea of the projected cost vs. the total cost. No idea of the satisfaction ratings from both providers and recipients. Never claimed to have those answers.

Actually, we DIDN'T hear from the vast majority of physicians. I don't know about nurses, maybe someone who is a US nurse can address that. The AMA, which is vastly left of the political center among physicians, endorsed HCR. So did other organizations who claim to represent physicians, but have only a minority of US physicians as members. I don't think we know what the "vast majority" of physicians think of HCR. There weren't, as far as I know (I'll look it up tomorrow) any major polling organizations that conducted randomized polls of physicians.

Medicare is rapidly going broke. That's the operational situation. It has exceeded the original cost estimates by several ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE, and costs keep going up fater than projected. Physicians are dropping out of Medicare at a steady rate. Polling of Medicare recipients seems to suggest they are reasonably satisfied with it.

Medicaid pays physicians much less than it costs to take care of the patient (if you assume each patient has to pay a fraction of the day's staff salaries, utilities, etc, never mind actually allowing the rich, evil physician to take home any pay!). The states are seeing it as the largest line item in the state budget, rising year over year rapidly, and unless state revenues keep pace (which they have not been!) every year more other services to state residents have to be decreased to pay for Medicaid. Many physicians have stopped seeing Medicaid recipients altogether, and this trend is proceeding faster than in Medicare. Many Medicaid patients complain about all the issues THEY struggle with, and those are many. People get dropped from Medicaid for no apparent reason (no change in their health or income) and struggle to get re-enrolled. Medications that were covered last month aren't covered this month, although the patient has been on it and NEEDS it (ie, diabetes medications). So although I haven't seen any recent systematic polling of Medicaid patients, I would say they probably aren't very satisfied.

Please note, I am not taking sides on this issue. I have to agree with Chris that we JUST DON'T KNOW because it's never been tried in this country. The indications don't look good to me, given that the government tends not to do a very good job on a great many things, but I am willing to wait and see how HCR turns out, because so much hasn't been settled as to how it is going to work, and so much more of it we won't know what the results will be until after 2012, or 2014, or 2016...

 

[Hypancistrus]

C'mon, most of this is a crock, and you should know it.

After the crap night I had in our very socialized education program (which fails on a daily basis), I probably shouldn't respond to this. But... why are you, Chris, allowed to call Danielle's argument a crock, but Wade isn't allowed to suggest that the other side's arguments are foolish??

I don't like how big government is getting. It's putting it's fingers into pots it was never intended to breach. People without insurance want it so bad?? So did I... and I turned down numerous jobs that I would enjoy more than teaching (a LOT more than teaching) in order to have a job with insurance to cover my asthma and allergy issues. Insurance was important for me, so I worked hard and made sacrifices in order to get the insurance I felt I needed. I chose to do what I had to do to make sure I had insurance. Anyone else in the country is free to make that choice, too. If your job doesn't have good insurance, you are free to find a job that DOES have good insurance. If you don't have enough skills or education to get that job that has good insurance, you are free to take classes or seek education that will help you to get that job. And if you don't have the money to take those classes, you can take out loans from a private company, or in many cases, from the government, to help you pay for that education.

It's all a matter of what you are choosing to invest in. I like that we have the freedom to choose. Others can choose to make the same sacrifices and investments in education that I made if they desire the same level of insurance. Or they can choose to take the job they love, with the less than great insurance. It should not be up to the government to decide for them, or to provide for them.

We already provide free housing, child care, funding for food and clothes and school supplies for children that people choose to have but cannot afford. Of course, all the people who receive such things are incredibly grateful to those of us who actually do work hard and pay taxes so that they can live for free on our dollar.

*sarcasm font*And I know their children, some of whom I spent the last four hours with, are definitely grateful for the free education they are given.