Yay Government health care:(

[danielle]

Just looking at how the government calculates Medicare reimbursement and how much still comes out of the patients pocket should be a clue to how well our government can handle a national health system on a larger scale. Medicaid/Medicare preassigns fees usually bundled by taking the labor, nonlabor, geographical index, and skill level of the visit, hospital stay, or test and reimburses the health care establishment a fraction of the total cost. Non participating physicians actually get paid more than those who do participate with Medicare, but then that comes out of the patients pocket. Hospital stays, skilled nursing homes, therapy, and prescriptions become extremely costly for the Medicare patient which is why soooo many of these insured recipients go without care and medication in the first place- they can't afford it and neither can our government. This isn't a prediction or wild interpretation its the truth

Looking at Medicare/Medicaid then we have government run health care that doesn't work already so it's not such a far stretch to assume a larger program will fair worse. I also still don't get why you call my assumptions a dooms day scenario filled with propaganda and lies. Economics 101 outlines my exact assumptions. When things cost more we consume less, when wages drop and unemployment rises we spend less. Less money into the economy means less money to funnel into our new universal health care system- after all the government gets its money from us

We need to be focusing on encouraging economic growth and instead we are pushing ourselves further into debt. My undergrad degree may have come paid for and the down payment for my home handed to me, but I have taken out loans for grad school that will take me 20 years to pay back just to be able to get a job that offered the benefits my family needs- and now finding one with a private option won't be easy meaning I did all this to receive substandard care that still will cost me and my employer a good deal of money.

You can call this an "option", but its really not- the government will find a way to force businesses to offer their option over a private one diminishing my right to chose the care I want.

 

[tyflier]

Actually, we DIDN'T hear from the vast majority of physicians. I don't know about nurses, maybe someone who is a US nurse can address that. The AMA, which is vastly left of the political center among physicians, endorsed HCR. So did other organizations who claim to represent physicians, but have only a minority of US physicians as members. I don't think we know what the "vast majority" of physicians think of HCR. There weren't, as far as I know (I'll look it up tomorrow) any major polling organizations that conducted randomized polls of physicians.

Ok...I can accept that. I don't know the status of the AMA nor the numbers it represents "in reality". I only know what I am told, and at the time I was told that these polls represented a majority of healthcare workers and providers, by the poll-makers. If I had the resources, I could do more of my own research, but I accept what you are telling me as true. Fair enough.

Medicare is rapidly going broke. That's the operational situation. It has exceeded the original cost estimates by several ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE, and costs keep going up fater than projected. Physicians are dropping out of Medicare at a steady rate. Polling of Medicare recipients seems to suggest they are reasonably satisfied with it.

Medicaid pays physicians much less than it costs to take care of the patient (if you assume each patient has to pay a fraction of the day's staff salaries, utilities, etc, never mind actually allowing the rich, evil physician to take home any pay!). The states are seeing it as the largest line item in the state budget, rising year over year rapidly, and unless state revenues keep pace (which they have not been!) every year more other services to state residents have to be decreased to pay for Medicaid. Many physicians have stopped seeing Medicaid recipients altogether, and this trend is proceeding faster than in Medicare. Many Medicaid patients complain about all the issues THEY struggle with, and those are many. People get dropped from Medicaid for no apparent reason (no change in their health or income) and struggle to get re-enrolled. Medications that were covered last month aren't covered this month, although the patient has been on it and NEEDS it (ie, diabetes medications). So although I haven't seen any recent systematic polling of Medicaid patients, I would say they probably aren't very satisfied.

I can accept this, too, as I said above...I don't know the status of these programs, and I certainly am not blind enough to think that our government is particularly adept at...well...anything, really.

Please note, I am not taking sides on this issue. I have to agree with Chris that we JUST DON'T KNOW because it's never been tried in this country. The indications don't look good to me, given that the government tends not to do a very good job on a great many things, but I am willing to wait and see how HCR turns out, because so much hasn't been settled as to how it is going to work, and so much more of it we won't know what the results will be until after 2012, or 2014, or 2016...

And of course I agree with this. We simply don't know what changes will come after the institutiona of this bill as law. It's a waiting game.

 

[wade]

It's not personal, Wade. I was addressing your "point". You said it was nice to hear from someone that worked in the industry.

That is exactly correct, that is what I said.

I kindly pointed out that we heard from the vast majority of healthcare providers working in the system.

This is the part you made up

I than asked what the criteria was in order for their opinions to "count"...

Truth is...I have no idea how medicaid and medicare are operating. No idea of the projected cost vs. the total cost. No idea of the satisfaction ratings from both providers and recipients. Never claimed to have those answers.

But you seem to feel comfortable telling us how this new system will be better than what we have.

I'm also not making wild predictions and creating doomsday scenarios based on information that is not available to me...:shrugs:

Am I making wild predictions? Where?

I didn't address his opinion because I have no idea what his personal experience is, nor do I have any information to support a contradictory opinion. Not having this kind of information makes me unable to comment and form an opinion. His personal experiences have led him to his own personal conclusions.

You seem to have very strong opinions of many things you have no experience to draw on.

I didn't see him spouting off about all the "fools" that disagree with him, nor did I see him making wild, doomsday predictions. If he had, I might have addressed those points. But he didn't...

Please direct me to "Wild Doomsday Predictions". I said I felt some people are foolish. I am entitled to that opinion. You have brought it up several times. I admit that I said it and stand by it, you don't need to agree. I'm ok with that. You don't need to bring it up each time you post.

 

[tyflier]

After the crap night I had in our very socialized education program (which fails on a daily basis), I probably shouldn't respond to this. But... why are you, Chris, allowed to call Danielle's argument a crock, but Wade isn't allowed to suggest that the other side's arguments are foolish??

Well...Wade's statements implied that anyone in disagreement with him was foolish. It was a "pre-emptive strike", stating that any indivdual to follow his post with a different opinion was a fool. Completely different than pointing out the errors of an actual post, after it was made, and referring to it as "a crock". Completely different indeed.

I called Daniell's post "a crock" because frankly,

"The issue with this type of reform is it goes against the American dream."

That's a crock. Giving people a choice IS the American dream. Taking care of the poor as well as the rich IS the American Ideal. "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses..."? Ring any bells? How about "all men are created equal"? Or maybe there should be a Constituional disclaimer added..."All men that have higher educations, high-paying jobs, and fall well above the middle-class line are created equal. Everyone else is a lazy, lousy, good for nothing slob." Perhaps that's what the constitution should say? :shrugs:

Here you can be rich, poor, or middle class it's your choice though not the governments.

That's a crock. I don't know anyone that chooses to be poor on purpose. Sure...drug addicts, criminals, and scumbags might make this choice. But that's hardly a fair cross-section of the lower class citizens of this country.

Those who become educated and work hard tend to end up with jobs that cover insurance

This is only partially a crock. Most people that work hard do OK. But it still isn't an actual, realistic representation of this country. There are millions of people that are poor through no fault of their own, and still work very, very hard to get what little they have.

So I called that section of her post mostly a crock because frankly...it is mostly a crock.

I don't like how big government is getting. It's putting it's fingers into pots it was never intended to breach.

I agree with you. But big business is getting too big for our own good. So what choice are we left with?

People without insurance want it so bad?? So did I... and I turned down numerous jobs that I would enjoy more than teaching (a LOT more than teaching) in order to have a job with insurance to cover my asthma and allergy issues. Insurance was important for me, so I worked hard and made sacrifices in order to get the insurance I felt I needed. I chose to do what I had to do to make sure I had insurance. Anyone else in the country is free to make that choice, too. If your job doesn't have good insurance, you are free to find a job that DOES have good insurance. If you don't have enough skills or education to get that job that has good insurance, you are free to take classes or seek education that will help you to get that job. And if you don't have the money to take those classes, you can take out loans from a private company, or in many cases, from the government, to help you pay for that education.

Well, with the economy plummeting, unemployment at an all time record high, small businesses closing their doors rapidly, and no light at the end of the tunnel just yet...this might not be the best time for people to start wandering around looking for a new job with benefits. There aren't any in MANY areas of this country.

It's nice that when you finished your schooling you had the opportunity and support systems in place to allow you the freedom to be picky, and make sacrifices to ensure you got the job you wanted, rather than the job you needed. That's fantastic for you.

Unfortunately, this is another one of those luxeries that is not afforded to every American citizen, contrary to what some might think. Some people have no choice but to take whatever job they can get. Some people have no choice but to work 2 or 3 full time jobs just to cover the monthly bills withOUT paying ridiculous insurance premiums.

Try to remember that the opportunities afforded to you are not afforded to everyone

It's all a matter of what you are choosing to invest in. I like that we have the freedom to choose. Others can choose to make the same sacrifices and investments in education that I made if they desire the same level of insurance. Or they can choose to take the job they love, with the less than great insurance. It should not be up to the government to decide for them, or to provide for them.

But see...the government IS NOT choosing for them. The government is ONLY giving different options IN ADDITION TO those that are currently available. Give me one good reason why this other option should NOT be offered to those that want it?

And I reiterate...not every citizen of this country has the same opportunities, no matter how much you might like to think that they do. This is simply not a realistic view of life in the good ol' US of A.

We already provide free housing, child care, funding for food and clothes and school supplies for children that people choose to have but cannot afford. Of course, all the people who receive such things are incredibly grateful to those of us who actually do work hard and pay taxes so that they can live for free on our dollar.

And none of that is effected by HCR. So what's the point? Another dig at the lower class based on wrongful and insulting assumptions? Lovely...

*sarcasm font*And I know their children, some of whom I spent the last four hours with, are definitely grateful for the free education they are given.

I'm sorry, but don't all children deserve a free education in this country? I'm just saying...

A lot of you have a very unrealistic idea of what life is like in the US. Not everyone that is poor is a loser. Not everyone with a low-wage job is there because of bad choices or a lack of education. Not everyone looking for a different option is looking for a handout. There are millions of people in this country that work hard, make good choices, and educate themselves as best they can, and they just cannot come out ahead of the game. I really wish some of you would realize that this is a fact of American life.

Financial classing in this country is not the black and white "work hard and you win" scenario that many of you seem to think it is. Many, many, many wonderful people work hard their entire lives and still never win. Take off the rose-colored glasses for a moment...

 

[tyflier]

This is the part you made up

I didn't make anything up. That was based on polls taken of the AMA, as wstphal pointed out. And if you took the time to read my posts, you would have seen where I accepted her statement that the AMA does not represent a majority of healthcare workers. That is a failing of the news media, for not making that aspect of the poll clear. That doesn't mean I "made it up"...

But you seem to feel comfortable telling us how this new system will be better than what we have

Show me where I said it will be better. Just one place would be nice...

I HAVE said it can't be much worse. But that's not nearly the same thing, now, is it?...

Am I making wild predictions? Where?

Actually you aren't the one that made the doomsday predictions. You just made the insults.

You seem to have very strong opinions of many things you have no experience to draw on.

Such as?

Please direct me to "Wild Doomsday Predictions". I said I felt some people are foolish. I am entitled to that opinion. You have brought it up several times. I admit that I said it and stand by it, you don't need to agree. I'm ok with that. You don't need to bring it up each time you post.

I never said you, specifically, made wild doomsday predictions. I said wild doomsday predictions were being made based on information that isn't available. And Danielle has been typing out doomsday predictions in most of her posts.

Calling anyone that disagrees with you "foolish" is farily childish, is it not? Sure, you're entitled to that opinion. But it's a very childish way to act in the course of a discussion of opinions.

 

[Shiari]

There is nothing about this topic I can say that cannot be said better by the below image. Doomsday predictions are pointless and silly. Do people just enjoy being afraid of monsters under the bed that much?

 

[medusacoils]

I have a feeling that this is going to be one of those, "I told you so!" moments!

Wayne

 

[Shiari]

Because of course doing things like preventing insurance companies denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, especially in children, or jacking up their prices per month by 40% (what's that? No outrage over that lovely bit of news a while back?), or deciding that if I become severely ill that they are going to suddenly stop being my health insurance company is going to lead us down the thorn filled slope of socialism and down into the deep pit of totalitarianism and the bottom of which is the giant magma pit of holy crap suddenly nazis!

Yup. Perfect sense, right there. Again, see the original that I posted.

And for those truly terrified of socialism, here is a pledge for you to sign:

The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge

I, ________________________________, do solemnly swear to uphold the principles of a socialism-free society and heretofore pledge my word that I shall strictly adhere to the following:

I will complain about the destruction of 1st Amendment Rights in this country, while I am duly being allowed to exercise my 1st Amendment Rights.

I will complain about the destruction of my 2ndAmendment Rights in this country, while I am duly >being allowed to exercise my 2ndAmendment rights by legally but brazenly brandishing unconcealed firearms in public.

I will foreswear the time-honored principles of fairness, decency, and respect by screaming unintelligible platitudes regarding tyranny, Nazi-ism, and socialism at public town halls. Also.

I pledge to eliminate all government intervention in my life. I will abstain from the use of and participation in any socialist goods and services including but not limited to the following:

*
Social Security
*
Medicare/Medicaid
*
State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
*
Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
*
US Postal Service
*
Roads and Highways
*
Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
*
The US Railway System
*
Public Subways and Metro Systems
*
Public Bus and Lightrail Systems
*
Rest Areas on Highways
*
Sidewalks
*
All Government-Funded Local/State Projects (e.g., see Iowa 2009federal senate appropriations--http://grassley.senate.gov/issues/upload/Master-Approps-73109.pdf)
*
Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!)
*
Public and State Universities and Colleges
*
Public Primary and Secondary Schools
*
Sesame Street
*
Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children
*
Public Museums
*
Libraries
*
Public Parksand Beaches
*
State and National Parks
*
Public Zoos
*
Unemployment Insurance
*
Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services
*
Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, Stateor Federal Government (pretty much all of them)
*
Medical Services and Medications That Were Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them)
*
Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (Nazi-NASA Inventions)
*
Use of the Internets, email, and networked computers, as the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking
*
Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies
*
Clothing Made from Crops (e.g. cotton) That Were Grown With or That Contain Inputs From Government Subsidies
*
If a veteran of the government-run socialist US military, I will forego my VA benefits and insist on paying for my own medical care

I will not tour socialist government buildings like the Capitol in Washington, D.C.

I pledge to never take myself, my family, or my children on a tour of the following types of socialist locations, including but not limited to:

*
Smithsonian Museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History
*
The socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments
*
The government-operated Statue of Liberty
*
The Grand Canyon
*
The socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorials
*
The government-run socialist-propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery
*
All other public-funded socialist sites, whether it be in my state or in Washington, DC

I will urge my Member of Congress and Senators to forego their government salary and government-provided healthcare.

I will oppose and condemn the government-funded and therefore socialist military of the United States of America.

I will boycott the products of socialist defense contractors such as GE, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Humana, FedEx, General Motors, Honeywell, and hundreds of others that are paid by our socialist government to produce goods for our socialist army.

I will protest socialist security departments such as the Pentagon, FBI, CIA, Department of Homeland Security, TSA, Department of Justice and their socialist employees.

Upon reaching eligible retirement age, I will tear up my socialist Social Security checks.

Upon reaching age 65, I will forego Medicare and pay for my own private health insurance until I die.

SWORN ON A BIBLE AND SIGNED THIS DAY OF ____________ IN THE YEAR ______________.

___________________________ ___________________________

Signed Printed Name/Town and State

 

[tyflier]

Shiari, I would quote you, but it's a long post.

AMEN!!

I assume there must be at least 1 or 2 government run and sanctioned amenities of living in the US that have been successful.

Danielle-
As far as your economics predicting such a devestating downturn after HCR is instilled...correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it the economists that told us everything was fine, we weren't in a recession, and as long as we kept investing our monies into these large corporations, we would all be OK? As I recall, that was less than 2 years before total economic collapse. Right about the time G.W. and his buddies were telling us that it wasn't a recession, it was an "economic downturn", but that we had nothing to worry about.

Or am I making that all up? :shrugs:

 

[tsst]

Why don't we do this. Everyone in favor of the UHC, PAY for it. Don't force those of us that think it will be just another gov failure to finance it.

I am still having a tough time understanding why some folks can't comprehend that just because the gov says they will do this great thing doesn't make it so. In fact look at most large federally controlled programs for a pre-existing example of how this will fail.

Was thinking the other day how it's odd ...
... that we send Bernie Madoff to prison but are fine with the gov doing the same thing with SS.
... that the we jump all over the banks for doing what they (the gov) allows them to do and worse yet do themselves and that's ok.
... that so many complain about insurance companies control over medical issues but relish in the gov doing the same thing.
... that many are so willing to ignore large failures like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, SS, USPS, Medicare, Medicaid, border control, etc and hand over yet another huge program for a proven failure of an entity to run.
... that it only took 230 years for so many to forget that thousands died to get us away from a huge controlling tyrannical gov and many are now so willing to not only concede to it but welcome it with open arms!?!?!?

Really? If I sold you dead or sick snakes on 6 or 8 previous occasions what would make you think the 9th time was a charm and I would send the most perfect specimen? I would be on a 50 page bad guy thread on the BOI. Why is the gov running of large agencies not on everyone's bad guy BOI list? They have proven they cannot do it. :shrugs:

 

[tyflier]

Why don't we do this. Everyone in favor of the UHC, PAY for it. Don't force those of us that think it will be just another gov failure to finance it.

I am still having a tough time understanding why some folks can't comprehend that just because the gov says they will do this great thing doesn't make it so. In fact look at most large federally controlled programs for a pre-existing example of how this will fail.

Was thinking the other day how it's odd ...
... that we send Bernie Madoff to prison but are fine with the gov doing the same thing with SS.
... that the we jump all over the banks for doing what they (the gov) allows them to do and worse yet do themselves and that's ok.
... that so many complain about insurance companies control over medical issues but relish in the gov doing the same thing.
... that many are so willing to ignore large failures like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, SS, USPS, Medicare, Medicaid, border control, etc and hand over yet another huge program for a proven failure of an entity to run.
... that it only took 230 years for so many to forget that thousands died to get us away from a huge controlling tyrannical gov and many are now so willing to not only concede to it but welcome it with open arms!?!?!?

Really? If I sold you dead or sick snakes on 6 or 8 previous occasions what would make you think the 9th time was a charm and I would send the most perfect specimen? I would be on a 50 page bad guy thread on the BOI. Why is the gov running of large agencies not on everyone's bad guy BOI list? They have proven they cannot do it. :shrugs:

Really?
Anything you are not interested in the government doing, you don't think you should have to pay for?

I'm not interested in Social Security because it will be worthless by my retirement age. Even moreso for my kid. So why doesn't everyone that isn't going to benefit from Social Security stop paying into it? That sounds like a great idea! I don't like prisons, and I don't think they are working right, so why doesn't everyone that thinks prisons don't work, just stop paying for them. Public transit? I have a car. And it's a truck with 4wd, so I'll stop paying for roads and streetlights, too.

If the government is such a huge, wasteful, decietful, lying failure...why do you live here? I mean, if you are so fed up, so over filled and sick of the government and want nothing to do with t anymore...go somewhere else! there must be a country on this planet that hasn't made a total mess of everything it has touched the way you seem to think the US has, so just go live there, and you will no longer have to worry about what the government is "forcing" you to do.

I don't understand why everyone that thinks the US government is such an incredible failure, and destined to destroy everything they know and love doesn't just leave. Follow your buddy Rush Limbaugh, get out of the country, and go find out how much better it is everywhere else.

The reality is that this government is FAR from perfect. But it beats the hell out of anything else out there.

 

[mike17l]

All men are created equal. That does not mean that all men are equal.

 

[wade]

Was thinking the other day how it's odd ...
... that we send Bernie Madoff to prison but are fine with the gov doing the same thing with SS.
... that the we jump all over the banks for doing what they (the gov) allows them to do and worse yet do themselves and that's ok.
... that so many complain about insurance companies control over medical issues but relish in the gov doing the same thing.
... that many are so willing to ignore large failures like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, SS, USPS, Medicare, Medicaid, border control, etc and hand over yet another huge program for a proven failure of an entity to run.
... that it only took 230 years for so many to forget that thousands died to get us away from a huge controlling tyrannical gov and many are now so willing to not only concede to it but welcome it with open arms!?!?!?

Really?
Anything you are not interested in the government doing, you don't think you should have to pay for?

I'm not interested in Social Security because it will be worthless by my retirement age. Even moreso for my kid. So why doesn't everyone that isn't going to benefit from Social Security stop paying into it? That sounds like a great idea! I don't like prisons, and I don't think they are working right, so why doesn't everyone that thinks prisons don't work, just stop paying for them. Public transit? I have a car. And it's a truck with 4wd, so I'll stop paying for roads and streetlights, too.

If the government is such a huge, wasteful, decietful, lying failure...why do you live here? I mean, if you are so fed up, so over filled and sick of the government and want nothing to do with t anymore...go somewhere else! there must be a country on this planet that hasn't made a total mess of everything it has touched the way you seem to think the US has, so just go live there, and you will no longer have to worry about what the government is "forcing" you to do.

I don't understand why everyone that thinks the US government is such an incredible failure, and destined to destroy everything they know and love doesn't just leave. Follow your buddy Rush Limbaugh, get out of the country, and go find out how much better it is everywhere else.

The reality is that this government is FAR from perfect. But it beats the hell out of anything else out there.

Chris, why do you take a very rational statement and turn it in to something it is not. No body is talking about stopping the payment of taxes or leaving the country. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

many are so willing to ignore large failures like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, SS, USPS, Medicare, Medicaid, border control, etc and hand over yet another huge program for a proven failure of an entity to run.

Why don't you actually address what the man said? Social Security is a huge failure. Your daughter will very likely not benefit from it, but may very likely have to pay for it. What makes you think they government will do better with health care? Please show us an example of a huge success the government has had in the last 230 years. Give is a reason to believe this will be different.

 

[tyflier]

Chris, why do you take a very rational statement and turn it in to something it is not. No body is talking about stopping the payment of taxes or leaving the country. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Maybe I just get a little sick of hearing everyone make the same arguments..."Why should I pay for YOUR insurance?" "It's destined to be a huge failure!" "The .gov can't do anything right!" All of those statements are just as ludicrous as my reply to it, and they have ALL been shown to be utterly false. So what's the problem? :shrugs:

Why don't you actually address what the man said? Social Security is a huge failure. Your daughter will very likely not benefit from it, but may very likely have to pay for it. What makes you think they government will do better with health care? Please show us an example of a huge success the government has had in the last 230 years. Give is a reason to believe this will be different.

OK, Wade...just for you...

"Social Security is a huge failure"--Social Security is a program that pays out benefits to millions of senior and disabled American citizens that would otherwise have no income, no housing, and no standard of life. It sure does seem to provide a means of living for an AWFUL lot of people. That's a tremendous accomplishment for such a "huige faliure"...

"What makes you think the government will do better with health care?"--I never said it would. But government run health insurance cannot be worse than the current situation. After 20 times of saying that same thing in respponse to the same question(from the same people) in this topic alone, I didn't feel that I needed to address it again. But since you asked so nicely, I did...

The government has established and run countless social and welfare programs since it's inception. NONE of them are "perfect". ALL of them have their shortcomings. But each and every one of them helps to provide a standard of living for millions of American Citizens that would otherwise be impossible.

Besides that, I think Shiari posted quite a lovely listing of many of the successful programs operated by the Government over the last 230 years.

Or maybe you would prefer to ignore the successes in favor of using propoganda as a basis for a ridiculous argument? :shrugs:

Or perhaps you would simply prefer to allow big businesses to take over this country, instead of a government, and see how well THEY handle social welfare, construction, infrastructure, fire/police/emergency response crews, prison systems, roadways, law enforcement, and...and...and...and...and...

Stop being so blind by propoganda. Realize that your argument of "the government has never run any program successfully" is relaly garbage. Acknowledge that while the government and it's programs are far from perfect, they are better than nothing, and provide countless benefits to millions of Americans quite successfully every day.

Stop crying about taxes increasing to pay for these social programs while you continue to drive on government funded roads, watch government subsidized television programming, feel secure in your government protected house, eat your government approved food items, take your government tested and developed medications issued by your government subsidized hyospitals and doctors, and spout off propoganda about the government that gives you the freedom to do so?

At the very least you could make your arguments semi-realistic and grounded at least in part in reality. Or maybe that's asking too much?:shrugs:

 

[danielle]

Shiari, If you don't think government run health care will refuse you treatment based on preexisting conditions, drop you when your not healthy, charge you too much, and deny you medications then why does Medicaid/Medicare do this now? This is about the government taking money from the private sector because health care is a cash cow- not about making health care better for those unfortunate sick souls out there. Look up Medicaid/Medicare restrictions, look up how many treatments and medications aren't covered, and see what the elderly pay out of pocket for this crap care.

And Chris, I agree with you when government paid economists told people just keep investing it'll be okay they were wrong- so why are they now right about a universal system? Look at what non affiliated financial advisors and economists say about such a vast program not what any administration is telling you. If we are in debt as a country as in negative cash flow where is the positive cash needed for this program going to come from? Us- the taxpayers, business owners, and middle class individuals that won't be able to stay on our private insurance once our jobs drop it for the public option. We won't have a choice since it is mandated ALL individuals MUST be insured by 2014 we will be forced into a public option we don't want- thats not a choice and thats not what America was founded on. Bring us your hungry, your tired, your poor is about coming here and OVERCOMING those things WITHOUT the fear of government oppression- not remaining hungry, tired, and poor. It's about the freedom to be self made and having the opportunity to have an education, a job of your choice, religious freedoms, and a lifestyle YOU control. Anyone can get a student loan and even mentally disabled people can go to college, a trade school, or receive some form of higher learning if they want to in order to become whoever it is they want to be. Our country wasn't founded on limiting anyone's potential, but the money that all of us are going to lose on this program will put limits in place and to me at least that goes against the American dream

 

[wade]

Maybe I just get a little sick of hearing everyone make the same arguments..."Why should I pay for YOUR insurance?" "It's destined to be a huge failure!" "The .gov can't do anything right!" All of those statements are just as ludicrous as my reply to it, and they have ALL been shown to be utterly false. So what's the problem? :shrugs:

You can say the word ludicrous if you like (I am not allowed to use the word foolish). Those statements are all opinions and I don't think any one has shown anything to be utterly false. You opinion is proof of nothing.


OK, Wade...just for you...

"Social Security is a huge failure"--Social Security is a program that pays out benefits to millions of senior and disabled American citizens that would otherwise have no income, no housing, and no standard of life. It sure does seem to provide a means of living for an AWFUL lot of people. That's a tremendous accomplishment for such a "huige faliure"...

Nobody argues that the benefits payed out by SS are good. The point is that it is paying out more than it can possibly take in. You yourself have questioned if you well ever receive SS benefits. The fact that it costs so much to operate and maintain makes it a failure. Do you seriously want to say it is a success?

"What makes you think the government will do better with health care?"--I never said it would. But government run health insurance cannot be worse than the current situation. After 20 times of saying that same thing in respponse to the same question(from the same people) in this topic alone, I didn't feel that I needed to address it again. But since you asked so nicely, I did...

The government has established and run countless social and welfare programs since it's inception. NONE of them are "perfect". ALL of them have their shortcomings. But each and every one of them helps to provide a standard of living for millions of American Citizens that would otherwise be impossible.

Again nobody will argue the need for insurance and retirement plans. The questions is weather the government is the right choice. The governments track record is dismal. The bureaucracy keeps growing and costing more and more but the product doesn't get any better, in fact benefits are constantly cut as taxes are increased. At the same time insurance companies are providing coverage for millions and at the same time making a profit. Vast difference.

Besides that, I think Shiari posted quite a lovely listing of many of the successful programs operated by the Government over the last 230 years.

Or maybe you would prefer to ignore the successes in favor of using propoganda as a basis for a ridiculous argument? :shrugs:

It's not propaganda. SS is doomed, it cannot support its own structure. Is that the glowing success story you want us to make decisions on?

Or perhaps you would simply prefer to allow big businesses to take over this country, instead of a government, and see how well THEY handle social welfare, construction, infrastructure, fire/police/emergency response crews, prison systems, roadways, law enforcement, and...and...and...and...and...

Again, don't start changing the subject. Nobody has advocated that the government has now place. There are areas like infrastructure, fire/police/emergency response (most of which is now private) all the things you listed there. Nobody has said that but you so don't try to lump that into this discussion.

Stop being so blind by propoganda. Realize that your argument of "the government has never run any program successfully" is relaly garbage. Acknowledge that while the government and it's programs are far from perfect, they are better than nothing, and provide countless benefits to millions of Americans quite successfully every day.

There is no propaganda here Chris. I have asked you several times and you have yet to give me an example of something like health care that the government does better than private industry. Don't say the army and police, that is far different. Lets compaire something that is similar like insurance companies and Medicare and Medicaid and Social security. That is a close comparison.

Stop crying about taxes increasing to pay for these social programs while you continue to drive on government funded roads, watch government subsidized television programming, feel secure in your government protected house, eat your government approved food items, take your government tested and developed medications issued by your government subsidized hyospitals and doctors, and spout off propoganda about the government that gives you the freedom to do so?

Again you have changed the subject. I am apposed to increased taxes to pay for government bureaucracy. I have not mentioned rodes or police. I haven't complained about the FDA. Has any one? I haven't complained about the armed forces who I whole heartedly support. Try to stay on topic Chris. You can't bring new subjects into the argument and then debate them. As long as we are on that topic, I am in favor of Motherhood and apple pie so don't bring that up either.

At the very least you could make your arguments semi-realistic and grounded at least in part in reality. Or maybe that's asking too much?:shrugs:

I'm pretty good at reality Chris, are you?

 

[tyflier]

Shiari, If you don't think government run health care will refuse you treatment based on preexisting conditions, drop you when your not healthy, charge you too much, and deny you medications then why does Medicaid/Medicare do this now? This is about the government taking money from the private sector because health care is a cash cow- not about making health care better for those unfortunate sick souls out there. Look up Medicaid/Medicare restrictions, look up how many treatments and medications aren't covered, and see what the elderly pay out of pocket for this crap care.

So because the system isn't spot-on perfect, it's a total and complete failure? Gee, I guess there can't possibly be a middle ground. Something along the lines of...well, it is not perfect, it has it's issues that should be worked on, but it still provides hundreds of millions of dollars in benefits to countless US citizens that would otherwise be completely without? That's not a possibility? The only option is to call it a complete and utter failure?

[sarcasm]yea...that's not propoganda at all. Totally accurate statements based entirely in reality, there...[/sarcasm]

And Chris, I agree with you when government paid economists told people just keep investing it'll be okay they were wrong- so why are they now right about a universal system?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that our congress was made up of economists. [sarcasm]I forgot that that it was the economists that wrote the bill, re-worked the bill countless times to make innumerable compromises, and voted on a bill that would provide the most public benefits with the least public cost. I simply wasn't aware that this was the job of the economists...[/sarcasm]

Look at what non affiliated financial advisors and economists say about such a vast program not what any administration is telling you.

I don't care who you are, that right there is funny. Imagine...someone that only listens to snippets of propoganda from an outdated video that is no longer valid telling me to listen to economists instead of an administration. That's what we call irony...

If we are in debt as a country as in negative cash flow where is the positive cash needed for this program going to come from? Us- the taxpayers, business owners, and middle class individuals that won't be able to stay on our private insurance once our jobs drop it for the public option.

Key word being "us"...as in the Citizens of the US...taxpayers. You know..everyone. The people that benefit as much as the people that don't. Quite a concept...public funds being used for public programs. [sarcasm] How DARE our government use our tax dollars to provide public programs. An OUTRAGE!![/sarcasm]

We won't have a choice since it is mandated ALL individuals MUST be insured by 2014 we will be forced into a public option we don't want- thats not a choice and thats not what America was founded on.

Here is that propoganda again. Nobody is forcing you to give up your private insurance. If your employer decides that the public government option is better for their business, why not just make some sacrifices, quit your job,m and find one that provides the private options you need? That's a choice that's available to every American, isn't it?

Or is that only a valid option when it supports your argument? That option doesn't count when it is used against your preferance, or what?

Bring us your hungry, your tired, your poor is about coming here and OVERCOMING those things WITHOUT the fear of government oppression- not remaining hungry, tired, and poor.

Yes, you're right. It is about opportunity. It's also about a government that instills public programs in order to give every citizen a firm ground to stand on in order to make an effort at a better life. Did you forget about that part of the equation?:shrugs:

Giving people public welfare programs is hardly oppression. Some of that gloprious Limbaugh intelligence shining through...

It's about the freedom to be self made and having the opportunity to have an education, a job of your choice, religious freedoms, and a lifestyle YOU control.

Really? Self-made? Give up everything that you don't pay cash money for directly from your pocket to the provider.

Consider for a moment what your life would be like without any of the government sponsored programs available in this country. No water. No heat. No electrical infrastructure. No fire or law enforcement. No roads. No laws. No cars. No houses. Not a whole lot going on in this country without it being provided to some degree by the "incompetent" US government...

Anyone can get a student loan and even mentally disabled people can go to college, a trade school, or receive some form of higher learning if they want to in order to become whoever it is they want to be.

So? You know why anyone can get a strudent loan? because they are guaranteed by the US Government. You know why anyone can go to a trade school and learn a skill? Because of government subsidies. You know why every person has the ability to do something to try and better themselves? because of government funded, spionsored, and regulated social welfare programs. Kind of puts your "argument" into a new perspective, doesn't it? It should...

Our country wasn't founded on limiting anyone's potential, but the money that all of us are going to lose on this program will put limits in place and to me at least that goes against the American dream

I guess it must be against the American Dream to provide social programs to ensure that every citizen of this country has an even. stable, and solid ground to start on in order to build the life they desire. I guess it must be against the American Dream for the government to provide a safety net, helping hand, assistance, and assurance to the citizens that are no longer able to provide that to themselves, for whatever reason.

So than what IS the American Dream? Step on anyone and everyone, claw, fight, and scratch your way to the top, and damn anyone that gets trampled under your feet along the way?

That's not what this country is founded on. Sorry, but that's just flat wrong...

Besides...everyone here has the option of not using any government run programs. That's a choice you have. Tough to do if you still live in this country, sure...but it's still a choice you have...:nope:

 

[mike17l]

But government run health insurance cannot be worse than the current situation.

Yes it can, this is where we look to the example of how our government has done with what we have given it here, as well as what other countries have done when they have tried the same thing.

Besides that, I think Shiari posted quite a lovely listing of many of the successful programs operated by the Government over the last 230 years.

Or maybe you would prefer to ignore the successes in favor of using propoganda as a basis for a ridiculous argument? :shrugs:

Or perhaps you would simply prefer to allow big businesses to take over this country, instead of a government, and see how well THEY handle social welfare, construction, infrastructure, fire/police/emergency response crews, prison systems, roadways, law enforcement, and...and...and...and...and...

*
Social Security Failing
*
Medicare/Medicaid Failing
*
State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP) Dont know ??
*
Police, Fire, and Emergency Services Some times they work, but personally I am serviced by private ambulance service, and volunteer fire service
*
US Postal Service dont plan on getting mail on Saturdays
*
Roads and Highways You mean those things with all that congestion and potholes that ruin my vehicle?
*
Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA) again, not entirely familiar with, but
*
The US Railway System too bad its heyday was a long time ago, when the .gov stayed out of it
*
Public Subways and Metro Systems ?
*
Public Bus and Lightrail Systems?
*
Rest Areas on Highways many are shutting down here, and on top of that, ours are taken care of by the state, not the feds.
*
Sidewalks again, local gov not fed
*
All Government-Funded Local/State Projects (e.g., see Iowa 2009federal senate appropriations--http://grassley.senate.gov/issues/upload/Master-Approps-73109.pdf) dont live in Iowa
*
Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!) does not apply to me, im on a well and septic
*
Public and State Universities and Colleges do you really want to look at this, many of these are a failure. Did you know you can actually get a degree in "general studies" or something like that.
*
Public Primary and Secondary Schools Again, a state thing, but you remember, back when the feds actually tried to brainwash US kids, that went over so well
*
Sesame Street This message brought to you by the letter "3"
*
Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children oh yes, the war on drugs, can buy a house with a "gift" it might be drug money
*
Public Museums local
*
Libraries local gov
*
Public Parksand Beaches local gov
*
State and National Parks Another failure
*
Public Zoos where are they? The public ones I mean, not the private ones
*
Unemployment Insurance that workers pay for
*
Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services that would be another private industry
*
Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, Stateor Federal Government (pretty much all of them) except for all them private ones, that still treat people
*
Medical Services and Medications That Were Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them) all medicines were created using gov monies? didn't know that. (where is that sarcasm font anyway?)
*
Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (Nazi-NASA Inventions) yes the Nazis invented dict tape, not Richard Drew of 3M
*
Use of the Internets, email, and networked computers, as the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking thank you Al Gore for inventing the internet, and thank you private companies for maintaining it
*
Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies again, a losing proposition for all involved. At some point the monies will run out and farmers will go under, if they have not already
*
Clothing Made from Crops (e.g. cotton) That Were Grown With or That Contain Inputs From Government Subsidies quick question, that cotton shirt your wearing, Egyptian cotton? Thought so.
*
If a veteran of the government-run socialist US military, I will forego my VA benefits and insist on paying for my own medical care the VA is ok, not great

I will not tour socialist government buildings like the Capitol in Washington, D.C. where are you even going with this anymore?

I pledge to never take myself, my family, or my children on a tour of the following types of socialist locations, including but not limited to:

*
Smithsonian Museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History we could learn a lot by visiting some of these places, I wonder if any promote socialism?
*
The socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments Men who are turning over in their graves right now
*
The government-operated Statue of Liberty a gift, from the French of all people
*
The Grand Canyon built by God, water, and gravity
*
The socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorials men who died to prevent what is happening now
*
The government-run socialist-propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery WOW, I am appalled at this, these men gave there lives to prevent socialism from spreading.
*

I am really getting tired of this and need to get back to work, so Ill just stop here.


All other public-funded socialist sites, whether it be in my state or in Washington, DC

I will urge my Member of Congress and Senators to forego their government salary and government-provided healthcare.

I will oppose and condemn the government-funded and therefore socialist military of the United States of America.

I will boycott the products of socialist defense contractors such as GE, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Humana, FedEx, General Motors, Honeywell, and hundreds of others that are paid by our socialist government to produce goods for our socialist army.

I will protest socialist security departments such as the Pentagon, FBI, CIA, Department of Homeland Security, TSA, Department of Justice and their socialist employees.

Upon reaching eligible retirement age, I will tear up my socialist Social Security checks.

Upon reaching age 65, I will forego Medicare and pay for my own private health insurance until I die.

 

[tyflier]

You can say the word ludicrous if you like (I am not allowed to use the word foolish). Those statements are all opinions and I don't think any one has shown anything to be utterly false. You opinion is proof of nothing.

There is a HUGE difference between me saying that these specific statements are ludicrous, and you saying anyone that disagrees with you is foolish. If you can't see the difference, than it's no wonder you consider these arguments realistic.

Nobody argues that the benefits payed out by SS are good. The point is that it is paying out more than it can possibly take in. You yourself have questioned if you well ever receive SS benefits. The fact that it costs so much to operate and maintain makes it a failure. Do you seriously want to say it is a success?

The SS system was never intended to cover seniors that live well into their 80's and 90's. It was designed and established at a time when the average life expectancy was around 55-60 years of age. That's not even retirement age, anymore. We are now paying into the system in order to provide for people that are living a full 20 or 30 years longer than what the average was when it was instilled.

The fact that it is still working and still providing countless people with a standard of living that is otherwise impossible makes it a HUGE success.

Again nobody will argue the need for insurance and retirement plans. The questions is weather the government is the right choice. The governments track record is dismal. The bureaucracy keeps growing and costing more and more but the product doesn't get any better, in fact benefits are constantly cut as taxes are increased. At the same time insurance companies are providing coverage for millions and at the same time making a profit. Vast difference.

The big business track record is even more dismal. They are robbing and stealing from people. They have destroyed our economy, robbed us blind, lied to us, increased our payments by a FAR greater percentage than any tax increases, and just decide that you aren't going to recieve the benefits you've paid for, once you actually need them.

I don't know that government will do it better. But it CAN'T do it worse. How many times are you going to ask me to repeat this same answer to your same question? :shrugs:

It's not propaganda. SS is doomed, it cannot support its own structure. Is that the glowing success story you want us to make decisions on?

Now here's the ironic part...it takes money to fix what is wrong with SS and all the other programs. It takes a constant reassessment of needs vs costs, and it takes a constant re-evaluation of the situation to make it better.

But in order to do that...taxes need to go up, and services need to be altered. But don't DARE try to do that. God forbid the government try to grow and change along with the rest of the world, right, wade?

There is no propaganda here Chris. I have asked you several times and you have yet to give me an example of something like health care that the government does better than private industry. Don't say the army and police, that is far different. Lets compaire something that is similar like insurance companies and Medicare and Medicaid and Social security. That is a close comparison

So I can only use examples of government run programs that you approve of? That seems like a sure-fire way to win just about any debate, doesn't it?

How about the ADA? What about the FDA? ATF? Welfare? Foodstamps? I keep hearing that medicaid/medicare are such huge failures, yet they still routinely provide hundreds of millions of dolars worth of benefits to countless US citizens. I can't call that a failure. The program does precisely what it is supposed to do...along with SS, disability, and countless other programs.

Maybe you don't think roads, fire crews, emergency response crews, law enforcement, military and the like count, but these are ALL government run programs that are effectively run mjore competently than competing private firms.

When you call 911(oops...another government run program...), would you rather have a cop or a security guard? On 9/11/01, would rather have had a government run military respond or the private "security forces"?

Yes, Wade...it is ALL propoganda.

Again you have changed the subject. I am apposed to increased taxes to pay for government bureaucracy. I have not mentioned rodes or police. I haven't complained about the FDA. Has any one? I haven't complained about the armed forces who I whole heartedly support. Try to stay on topic Chris. You can't bring new subjects into the argument and then debate them. As long as we are on that topic, I am in favor of Motherhood and apple pie so don't bring that up either.

Rreally? You ask me to name one program that the government has ran successfully, and when you given many, you discount them as "off topic"?

The subject is whether or not the government is capable of running any of it's programs. The answer is yes...it is.

I'm pretty good at reality Chris, are you?

Evidently I am MUCH better at it than you are, Wade... I don't pick and choose what examples and supporting evidence you get to use to support your arguments. The only way for you to make your arguments realistic is to discount anything that goes against it by saying it is "off topic" or "completely different".

The bottom line, as far as I can tell, is that there are MANY jmore successfully run government programs than there are "utter failures".

And just for the record...any public program that is still capable of performing it's intended duties, regardless of increased costs or changed services...is a success. This includes SS, medicaid/medicare, welfare, and all of the other social programs that are still operating and providing billions of dollars in benefits to countless American Citizens every day of every week.

 

[wade]

Good bye Chris.