motley question

[carnivorouszoo]

I'm not sure I get this. If a snake is normal patterned carrying motley or stripe they are called het for the hidden trait. Yet it is incorrect for motleys to be het for stripe?? Can someone help me grasp this?

 

[Shiari]

Motley and stripe both "exist" in the same location, genetically. So an animal can be homozygous motley and look like a motley, be homozygous stripe and look like a stripe.... or have one motley gene and one stripe gene and look like a motley!

I'll try and make lame "images" below. x for normal, M for motley, and S for stripe. Pretend the xs are the same stretch of the genome for each example

xx
xx
xx
MM
xx

or

xx
xx
xx
SS
xx

or

xx
xx
xx
MS
xx


See?

 

[carnivorouszoo]

no. I want to know why calling a motley that carries stripe a motley het stripe is incorrect. I know they can carry them both for goodness sake lol!

 

[Shiari]

Aaaah, I better understand this time. Tired. XD

*Technically* Motley het stripe is inaccurate. A motley is an animal homozygous for the motley gene, which leaves no room for the stripe gene. It can, however, serve as a phenotypic descriptor. "This animal has the motley pattern, but is het for stripe".

You'll sometimes see these animals referred to as motley stripes, but that tends to make people confused when they hear about 'striped motleys'. The first is genetic, but the second is purely phenotypic.

Might just want to call them "genetic motley-stripes"

 

[Susan]

Motley and stripe work the same way as amel and ultra with the exception of the motley gene having dominant expression over the stripe gene when both are present and both amel and ultra are expressed in combination in an ultramel.

It just happened that the term "ultramel" works so well for the gene combo, while motley stripe can be confusing since motley has the pin-striped phenotype which some call a striped motley and the term "strotley" is just plain yucky.

Because the motley gene has a dominantly expressed phenotype, they use the term "motley het stripe" to indicate that the snake looks like a motley but also carries the stripe gene, but you can confuse some as they think the snake has 2 motley genes and 1 stripe gene. Technically, it can be written as het motley het stripe, which truly indicates that the snake carries one motley gene and one stripe gene, but then, you also confuse people because they think the snake does not show the phenotype (has a normal pattern).

Basically, no matter what you call it, someone is bound to be confused until they fully understand the relationship between those two genes. :headbang:

 

[Nanci]

I don't think it's incorrect to call a snake with one motley gene and one stripe gene a motley het stripe. That is how it is presented in Cornsnake Morph Guide.

As Susan says, for one to understand that terminology, they must know that although there is only one motley gene, the motley pattern is still expressed because the stripe gene is present and acts as the second motley gene. (That was a really horrible explanation, but that's all I've got!)

 

[medusacoils]

Generally if you breed a Motley to Stripe you get animals that express Motley but are also homo/het Stripe. Which is confusing. As already pointed out, Motley and Stripe share the same locus similarly to Ultra and Amel.

The difference being that Motley is dominant over stripe so all the babies are going to express the Motley pattern. Some are going to have a slight stripe expression by showing the pinstripe or q-tipped pattern. Other than that, they are going to be indistinguishable from an animal that is solely homo Motley. The only way to really tell the difference is by breeding to a homo Stripe. That breeding will yield both Stripes and Motleys.

In a sense these animals are basically Homo and Het for Motley and Stripe. We just list them as Motley het Stripe to make it less confusing. I'm suspecting that this post has done the opposite. :shrugs:

Wayne

 

[carnivorouszoo]

I'm sorry guys. Someone saw my amel motley het caramel stripe on my site and emailed me a bit whopping email about how bad of a corn snake owner and breeder I am because she should be listed as Amel het Caramel, Het Motley, Het stripe so I wanted to get some feedback from the peeps I trust. I personally feel that because Motley is dominant calling a motley that carries stripe a Motley het stripe should be correct. I understand that both Motley and Stripe are recessive to normal pattern but with the dominance of Motley when normal is completely out of play the terms fit, ya know? When I hear het Motley Het Stripe it tells me the person doesn't know which the snake is het for. Though I would list that instance as Het motley or stripe, myself.

 

[fyrefocks]

I cant speak for others, but my issue with "motley het stripe" is that it comes off as implying that the animal is homo motley het stripe, which is impossible.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

No animal can be homo and het at the same time for anything on one allel. The term het simply means that the second gene is hidden at least that is the way the term has always been explained to me. Homo means the animal is JUST that example. If an animal has 2 motley genes it is HOMO motley. Its my understanding that to be homo anything you have to have both allels filled with the same gene. So saying mot het stripe is correct. The animal is phenetically motley but genetically hiding the stripe gene.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

To me it seems like a silly thing to take isue with. "Motley het stripe" is generally used because these animals have a motley appearance (generally) and carry stripe gene. While het motley het stripe is probably a more accurate description, at least motley het stripe is giving you the info the animal carries both unlike "motley-stripe" that sometimes is used.
Whatever, most people accept motley het stripe as correct...

 

[fyrefocks]

No animal can be homo and het at the same time for anything on one allel. The term het simply means that the second gene is hidden at least that is the way the term has always been explained to me. Homo means the animal is JUST that example. If an animal has 2 motley genes it is HOMO motley. Its my understanding that to be homo anything you have to have both allels filled with the same gene. So saying mot het stripe is correct. The animal is phenetically motley but genetically hiding the stripe gene.

Heterozygous, simply put, means that the animal carries one of the two alleles required for the animal to display the trait. So saying mot het stripe is incorrect. The animal only has one motley allele on the locus. The other half of the locus contains the stripe allele. Therefore the animal is het for motley stripe. The only reason an animal with one allele from each gene displays the pattern is because the locus contains two pattern affecting alleles.

 

[gelshark]

I would call a snake with one motley gene and one stripe gene a motley het stripe also. Reason being: We call a snake first by its phenotype then all the rest is just genotype mumbo jumbo, that really only matters to someone breeding it later on.

For example, if I want to show you a lavender and a lavender het amel are you going to be able to tell visually which is which?

If we were going to call them strictly by genotype then we would have a whole bunch of extra homos added to the name of everything. Imagine me trying to sell a "homo lavender" at a show to the first time teenage snake buyer (with parental consent of course). Mom is going to think that the snake is homosexual (not homozygous for the lavender gene), and while some people would accept that others won't, and snakes already have enough rumors being spread about them.

 

[gelshark]

PS do we call the Tesseras "het Tessera" or just "Tessera"?

 

[fyrefocks]

PS do we call the Tesseras "het Tessera" or just "Tessera"?

Since there is no super form of tessera, im not comfortable calling it a co-dom. So no, you wouldnt.

 

[gelshark]

Since there is no super form of tessera, im not comfortable calling it a co-dom. So no, you wouldnt.

My point is that we call them Tessera whether they are homozygous or heterozygous for the Tessera gene. If there proves to be a "super form" later on then someone will probably coin a new name for the morph, which will be an indication of its phenotype, since I doubt the trade name will be "homo tessera" and I doubt that trade name of the now tesseras will change to "het tessera"

If a homozygous tessera cannot be differentiated from the heterozygous tessera, I am still sure that a potential breeder would still love to know which he/she has, as the ramifications could be great (would you rather have a 100% or 50% of the clutch turn out to be tessera?)

 

[fyrefocks]

My point is that we call them Tessera whether they are homozygous or heterozygous for the Tessera gene. If there proves to be a "super form" later on then someone will probably coin a new name for the morph, which will be an indication of its phenotype, since I doubt the trade name will be "homo tessera" and I doubt that trade name of the now tesseras will change to "het tessera"

If a homozygous tessera cannot be differentiated from the heterozygous tessera, I am still sure that a potential breeder would still love to know which he/she has, as the ramifications could be great (would you rather have a 100% or 50% of the clutch turn out to be tessera?)

Im pretty tessera is an incomplete dominant gene, so they would either be tessera or not tessera. There is no het tessera.

People are going to do what makes them happy, regardless of how i feel about whatever it is that they are doing. Im just explaining why i feel the way i do. Motley/Stripe or het Motley/Stripe just makes sense to me.

 

[gelshark]

Im pretty tessera is an incomplete dominant gene, so they would either be tessera or not tessera. There is no het tessera.

Het = Heterozygous, it means one copy of a gene at an allele, whether it is dominant (expressed), co-dominant (partially expressed) , recessive (not expressed) or whatever else have you.

 

[Susan]

I make a motion that from now on, any snake that is carrying one motley gene and one stripe gene be called a Trundlefart. That way, everyone will know what it looks like as well as what it's genetics are and there will be no more confusion or arguments.

 

[Shiari]

I second this motion! XD