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My Corn Is "Potty Trained"

Shiari said:
Dogs and cats do that too. They also void their bowels and bladder as a stress response.

It's NOT JUST or ONLY a stress response. It can also be pure and simple nausea.

And yes, I was talking about corn snakes, once again in a thread ABOUT corn snakes.

As a rule of thumb, snakes should not be handled after feeding to give them time to digest, as the added activity and/or stress can cause a regurge. Handling before has only prevented eating in one of my snakes, and he is such a stress case over all that he is almost never handled unless I am doing a health check on him. He even gets the bottom bin in the rack system as he is 'happiest' there.

I could go and handle Lacy, Liam, Tor, Dier, Mal, Es', El', What-The, Heck, Keeper, Vanay, Nautley, Mari, Brin, OR Lesh and have them all eat after, and from my fingers, and keep eating in my hands.
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That's great. And I do understand this is a Cornsnake thread, but I was peaking generally, just like your talking about cats and dogs (because they're reptiles, right?). So handling does cause stress, correct?
 
Carinata said:
That's great. And I do understand this is a Cornsnake thread, but I was peaking generally, just like your talking about cats and dogs (because they're reptiles, right?). So handling does cause stress, correct?
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To the bolded section:

NO. Not the way you have it written.

Handling MAY, might, has the potential to but does not necessarily, could possibly, cause an animal to be stressed out.


The cats and dogs were to show that the particular behaviour exhibited in the snakes is not a snake-specific behaviour, and that just as there are multiple causes for vomiting in other animals, so are there multiple causes of vomiting in snakes.
 
Shiari said:
To the bolded section:

NO. Not the way you have it written.

Handling MAY, might, has the potential to but does not necessarily, could possibly, cause an animal to be stressed out.


The cats and dogs were to show that the particular behaviour exhibited in the snakes is not a snake-specific behaviour, and that just as there are multiple causes for vomiting in other animals, so are there multiple causes of vomiting in snakes.
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I just don't get it! So snakes bite, musk, regurge, twist and turn, hiss and crap on us as a joke? That's stress! So you can use mammals in your posts, but I can't use other snakes?
 
Carinata said:
I just don't get it! So snakes bite, musk, regurge, twist and turn, hiss and crap on us as a joke? That's stress! So you can use mammals in your posts, but I can't use other snakes?
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The majority of my snakes do NOT bite, musk, regurge, or flail.

It's like saying all pitbulls are vicious because a few are.

Or all chihuahuas are stressbuckets.

Or all X are like Y.

I will rephrase this:


Blanket statements about such a thing do NOT work.


The mammals were to point out a single listed behavioural trait, to show it is not unique to reptiles, and to provide proof of there being other causes. They were used for a very specific reason.

You, whether you know it or not, are using the equivalent of "dogs and cats have fur, so snakes must have fur."

A flowerpot snake is not necessarily going to react the same way as a corn. A burmese python is not necessarily going to react the same way as a corn.
An indigo snake is not necessarily going to react the same way as a corn.

And to once again go outside the reptiles:

A parakeet does not react the same way as a finch does not react the same way as an eagle.
 
Okay, I lied, I'm sorry. But this time I swear I won't post again here! Don't hit me!

Carinata said:
Here's evidence. Ever handled a snake before you fed it? Most won't eat right after,correct? Yep, that's stress.
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1. Yes, frequently.
2. No, I have never made that observation.
3. N/A.

Carinata said:
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCNotEating.htm-How about that?
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That's not a care sheet, that's a FAQ for snakes that are not eating. A snake that is already exhibiting signs of stress or illness, such as not eating, I would also recommend handling it only when necessary.

ScottyK said:
Probably because they are made for beginners and are being conservative. I've also found enough misinformation in care sheets to fill a book.
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Also a very good point.

Carinata said:
So why don't we handle snakes after feeding then?
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For the same reason that most snakes, when full, tend to find a cozy spot and then stay still for a while. Their bodies are not like ours. Even though they are well designed to swallow whole prey it still puts a lot of stress and pressure on their system. Kind of like that third or fourth plate I have on Thanksgiving does. As pointed out, any animal or person that overacts right after a full meal is at serious risk for losing said meal. Snakes always eat very full meals and need time to get the digestion process going before they're really comfortable moving around.

This thread died at least twice. If either "side" insists on bringing it up again, myself included, really we should just start a new thread.
 
I am not trying to make myself sound better than you, but I think I have bit of a wider range of experience with a variation of species, localities, subspecies and intergrades. I can tell you Nic. Boas are much more aggressive than Colombian Boas. I would say that a lot of localities of Boa are much different when it comes to temperament. I may scoop poop for a "flipper", but cleaning cages is how you get to experience a species. Can't just sit down and have a chat with it. Your a Vet Tech, and I doubt many people bring Viper Boas into your office on a daily basis.
 
You know, I was just thinking that you sound so much like this guy that would never back down, who was always right and knew better than everyone else, that people used to always get into it with on here back when I was last around the forums. Then I realized that, you are that guy. Some things never change.
 
Kaminoke said:
You know, I was just thinking that you sound so much like this guy that would never back down, right or wrong, that people used to always get into it with on here back when I was last around the forums. Then I realized that, you are that guy. Some things never change.
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Yep, I'm that guy. It's a pleasure to meet you, as I don't remember who you were.
 
Carinata said:
I am not trying to make myself sound better than you, but I think I have bit of a wider range of experience with a variation of species, localities, subspecies and intergrades. I can tell you Nic. Boas are much more aggressive than Colombian Boas. I would say that a lot of localities of Boa are much different when it comes to temperament. I may scoop poop for a "flipper", but cleaning cages is how you get to experience a species. Can't just sit down and have a chat with it. Your a Vet Tech, and I doubt many people bring Viper Boas into your office on a daily basis.
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David, you just made my point for me.

You are generalising ALL snakes in a CORN SNAKE thread. Saying that "snakes" get stressed by handling is not true as the different species react different. WE are saying "No, not all snakes get stressed by any and all handling, as most corns show no adverse effects to handling. And they are snakes."

"All dogs have long hair." - "What about chi, pibbles, ACDs, smooth collies, pugs, etc etc"


You are making sweeping blanket statements as being factual for all species of and all individual snakes. We have shown you that this statement cannot be phrased as you have done, but you insist upon it.


David, the following sentences have drastically different meanings:

All snakes get stressed by handling.
Some snakes get stressed by handling.


Sentence one is a false blanket statement, that can be disproved.

Sentence two is factually correct, as it allows for both reactions: stress, and not-stress.
 
Shiari said:
David, you just made my point for me.

You are generalising ALL snakes in a CORN SNAKE thread. Saying that "snakes" get stressed by handling is not true as the different species react different. WE are saying "No, not all snakes get stressed by any and all handling, as most corns show no adverse effects to handling. And they are snakes."

"All dogs have long hair." - "What about chi, pibbles, ACDs, smooth collies, pugs, etc etc"


You are making sweeping blanket statements as being factual for all species of and all individual snakes. We have shown you that this statement cannot be phrased as you have done, but you insist upon it.


David, the following sentences have drastically different meanings:

All snakes get stressed by handling.
Some snakes get stressed by handling.


Sentence one is a false blanket statement, that can be disproved.

Sentence two is factually correct, as it allows for both reactions: stress, and not-stress.
Click to expand...

Handling stress's ALL snakes to a certain extent. No one can tell me their corn hasn't tried to get away from them, musked on them, bit them. I will continue to speak in a generalized manner as long as you speak about mammals. You are obviously more comfortable speaking about Mammals. I am more comfortable speaking about snakes as a whole. As far as corns, yes they do very well with handling. But you can't tell me that corns (especially babies), never stress from handling. I mean wouldn't you? If someone picked me up, I'd stress a little bit. I'm sorry but you're not making sense. I know we don't want to stress our animals but we do to some extent. Today the Fire Department my Dad is the Chief at, called to have me remove a Black Ratsnake that was jammed behind a vanity. I literally had to pull it out of the back of a vanity that was glued to the wall, we had to drill a hole in the side of it. The snake bit and musked at first but after it calmed down you could tell it was still stressed. It felt tense, it's body language was obvious. Blood Pythons for example, before they strike, when they are stressed they will flick only a little bit of their tongue out and move their eyes rapidly. Doesn't seem like stress until it's too late!
 
Carinata said:
No one can tell me their corn hasn't tried to get away from them, musked on them, bit them.
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Yes I can. Because that's why Keeper was kept. Cathy and Lolo both met Keeper. She never musked, rattled, flailed or struck. She's super super super calm. Doesn't care. Was like that straight out of the egg.
 
Shiari said:
Yes I can. Because that's why Keeper was kept. Cathy and Lolo both met Keeper. She never musked, rattled, flailed or struck. She's super super super calm. Doesn't care. Was like that straight out of the egg.
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Well that's great! I mean corns live 25 years, so you definitely have had it it's whole life. All I have to say is, cornsnakes do have a reputation for this, and a lot of people have great success handling their snakes almost daily. But it's body language one must look at, as I said before and was blatantly ignored. An animal has certain ways to deal, corns don't bite, but you can tell when ones stressed. Someone who closely observes their animals can tell. Corns will tense up (an you can feel it) and will move quickly between your fingers. Like I said, all snakes have a body language that we are not in tuned to, I have taught myself some of the ways to ID this and how to avoid stressing an animal. I have to handle snakes daily, I move them into hold to clean their cages, inspect them for any health issues, etc. And some animals it is really easy to tell with some it is not.
 
Keeper sits on my hand/arm and simply lays there. Or calmly moves. She never moves quickly. She's... well... placid.
 
Carinata said:
Well that's great! I mean corns live 25 years, so you definitely have had it it's whole life. All I have to say is, cornsnakes do have a reputation for this, and a lot of people have great success handling their snakes almost daily. But it's body language one must look at, as I said before and was blatantly ignored. An animal has certain ways to deal, corns don't bite, but you can tell when ones stressed. Someone who closely observes their animals can tell. Corns will tense up (an you can feel it) and will move quickly between your fingers. Like I said, all snakes have a body language that we are not in tuned to, I have taught myself some of the ways to ID this and how to avoid stressing an animal. I have to handle snakes daily, I move them into hold to clean their cages, inspect them for any health issues, etc. And some animals it is really easy to tell with some it is not.
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The bold part here is what gets me, corns don't bite, come pay me a visit and I will let you hold one that thinks she is an anaconda. She has been evil since she came here and has not changed. I have lost enough blood to her bad days which is everyday with her.
 
crotalis40741 said:
The bold part here is what gets me, corns don't bite, come pay me a visit and I will let you hold one that thinks she is an anaconda. She has been evil since she came here and has not changed. I have lost enough blood to her bad days which is everyday with her.
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It was a generalized statement. I have dealt with corns that are worse than some ATBs I have worked with. I'm trying not to piss of the general population too much. These people hold a high standard of 17 year olds.
 
Carinata said:
Are you ignoring everything I'm saying? There are always exceptions to things.
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Exactly.

You are not allowing for exceptions when YOU say "all handling is stressful".

"All snakes get stressed by handling" does not allow for exceptions.

"Some snakes get stressed by handling" and "Handling can be stressful" allow for exceptions.

I have a snake that does not tense up. Does not flail. Does not dart. Does not musk. Does not rattle. Does not s-coil. Does not strike. Might she someday in the future? Sure. Anything with a mouth can bite after all. But there is a reason why she is going to be the matriarch of my breeding project. From the EGG she was this docile.
 
Carinata said:
It was a generalized statement. I have dealt with corns that are worse than some ATBs I have worked with. I'm trying not to piss of the general population too much. These people hold a high standard of 17 year olds.
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Ah I see, only thing is nothing in life is generalized whether it be corns, 17 year olds or the general population. All anyone can see is how one conducts themselves and presents their own selves. Beating the dead horse over and over to make a point only deepens the dislike and ill feelings.
 
Shiari said:

Exactly.

You are not allowing for exceptions when YOU say "all handling is stressful".

"All snakes get stressed by handling" does not allow for exceptions.

"Some snakes get stressed by handling" and "Handling can be stressful" allow for exceptions.

I have a snake that does not tense up. Does not flail. Does not dart. Does not musk. Does not rattle. Does not s-coil. Does not strike. Might she someday in the future? Sure. Anything with a mouth can bite after all. But there is a reason why she is going to be the matriarch of my breeding project. From the EGG she was this docile.
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There is wiggle room for any rule, you're being overly picky. Everyone can see this. I was born at night, but not last night. And line breeding for temperament is really pointless. There is no way to line breed behavior. It is not possible. There is no genetic anything that will be reproducible. It's like a paradox in most snakes.
 
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