A case of retained sperm????(Update 5/31)

[Buzzard]

I started having pips yesterday from my first clutch. This is an Amel male het for anery, bloodred x Ultramel anery female p/h bloodred.

These are the possible outcomes, that I should of had(not including the bloodred possibilites)
1/4 Amels
1/4 Ultramels
1/4 Snows
1/4 Ultramel anerys

So why am I getting Normals in this bunch. Not just 1 or 2 but half the clutch. Is this a case of retained sperm? .. Pics below are 1. Father 2. Mother 3. pippies

 

[Shiari]

Do you know who the female was bred to last year?

 

[Buzzard]

Do you know who the female was bred to last year?

I purchased her from a gentleman in TX. He did breed her last year, but I lost his info in a CPU crash last year. So now I have no clue what these little bugger might be carrying.

 

[Shiari]

:/ Sucky.

How many times did you witness a lock with the male you introduced this year?

 

[Buzzard]

Witnessed 3, evidence of a 4th

 

[Shiari]

Has the male successfully mated with any other females? (sloooowly narrowing down reasons for why she might have chosen retained sperm)

 

[Buzzard]

She was the first, he mated later in the season to a Sunglow het anery, bloodred.

 

[Shiari]

He may have been throwing blanks those first few times, I guess. *shrugs* Good luck figuring out this (annoying for you) mystery out.

 

[Buzzard]

He may have been throwing blanks those first few times, I guess. *shrugs* Good luck figuring out this (annoying for you) mystery out.

Thanks, I will need all the luck I can get on this one. I have heard of retained sperm but never actually had it occur(until now) that I was aware of.

 

[bitsy]

So why am I getting Normals in this bunch. Not just 1 or 2 but half the clutch.

What are the other half of the clutch?

 

[Buzzard]

So far amels as far as I can tell. The two that have come out were 1 amel and 1 normal. I still have 4 eggs left to pip. and 6 pipping 3 appears to be amel and 3 appear normal

 

[Tara80]

In my opinion, the father does not look ultra. He looks just like the Ice corns I've got (lava anery). My personal bet is that ultra is not involved. I also have ultramel aneries and the eyes are fairly blue. Unless it is the shading of the picture, those eyes say lava and not ultra, along with the generic pattern and coloration of the body.

First pic is my ultramel anery girl. Second two of my ice.

 

[Tara80]

I changed the last picture, which is of my female Ice and shows a little more similarity.
I think you have a good project, at the least!

 

[Buzzard]

Possible Tara, (the father is an amel, mother is the ultramel anery, no biggie I still understood exactly what you are saying). The mothers eyes are blue-ish... The gentleman I got her from had purchased her from Don (allegedly). So I don't know. I still have 4 eggs yet to pip, waiting is gonna kill me.

I just relized that the female only said Ultramel... I edited it(my bad)

 

[Tara80]

Oops, sorry I misread your original post.

But even if, and these babies ARE from your guy, then you've got an awesome F2 project!

Oh, I should note that I don't think the guys was being totally honest to you, the ultramel anery in my top picture is directly from Don.

 

[Buzzard]

Oops, sorry I misread your original post.

But even if, and these babies ARE from your guy, then you've got an awesome F2 project!

Oh, I should note that I don't think the guys was being totally honest to you, the ultramel anery in my top picture is directly from Don.

I hear you, I am starting to have my doubts to. So far 2 amels and 1 normal out..

 

[Susan]

She does look a little dark to be an ultramel anery, but I haven't seen enough to say one way or the other. She reminds me of the mystery line, especially with all that yellow, so there may be some other genes floating around, but I played around with the genetics calculator and nothing produced just amels and normals with the male being an amel het anery. There have to be some anerys and snows in there unless Murphy has really screwed you over. Is the male's genetics proven? And is there even the remotest chance another male may have had his way with her? For example, being placed with another "female" during brumation or while vivs were being cleaned? It sure wouldn't be the first time a female had been mis-sexed and "Oops!", you have babies! We may be able to help more once the entire clutch is out and after they have shed as some noses can be quite deceiving with normals turning into anerys once they are out.

 

[Buzzard]

She does look a little dark to be an ultramel anery, but I haven't seen enough to say one way or the other. She reminds me of the mystery line, especially with all that yellow, so there may be some other genes floating around, but I played around with the genetics calculator and nothing produced just amels and normals with the male being an amel het anery. There have to be some anerys and snows in there unless Murphy has really screwed you over. Is the male's genetics proven? And is there even the remotest chance another male may have had his way with her? For example, being placed with another "female" during brumation or while vivs were being cleaned? It sure wouldn't be the first time a female had been mis-sexed and "Oops!", you have babies! We may be able to help more once the entire clutch is out and after they have shed as some noses can be quite deceiving with normals turning into anerys once they are out.

I purchase him and a couple of his offspring in a group sale. His offspring are a Fire and Avalanche. Unless I was lied to. But even then I they should of produced amels and Ultramels, unless she is another morph het Amel???? Which would explain the 50%-ish (Actually so far out of 12 eggs/ 6 are pipping 4 have now come out its exactly 50/50). I am stumpped, and bummed to say the least...Not that these aren't great looking snakes, I was just hoping for a different morph. They all appear very healthy and that is a blessing...

Oh and no other male or female has been with her since we have had her.

 

[Tara80]

I was also going to say that another point to me is the head shape. Of course it's not an "always the case" reason, but most lavas or ice I have seen have a specific (noticeable) head shape - a little larger and a little more 'tapering' than average (which you can see in the two I posted as well). For some reason she just screams lava to me.
Also, she seems almost frosted in appearance.

Have you contacted Don to see what his thoughts are? I'll bet he'd be more than happy to provide his expert opinion on a) if he remembers this snake and b) what he thinks she might be.

 

[Susan]

Played some more with the calculator and I was able to come up with the results you're getting, but the genes for both parents are not quite right. You can get 50:50 amels and normals if:
1) male Amel NOT het anery X female Ice het amel or Ghost het amel
2) male Amel het anery X female Lava Charcoal or Phantom

If ultra is either homo or het in the female, you can't get normals with an amel male so either your male is not the father (and retained sperm from last year would maybe fertilize a few eggs at most, not a clutch the size you got) or the female is not ultra/ultramel.

The amount of yellow is sort of throwing off the whole phenotype identification thing. Take most of that away and she does look very much like an ice. My Jocelyne has nice darker markings, but not much yellow. But them, Iceman has plenty of color on his neck.