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Fire or Amel Masque? Please help.
- Thread starter albertagirl
- Start date
albertagirl
Sharan
So clear patches are not black checks that have been de-melanized? (I take writer's liberty with my vocabulary, please excuse.)
For comparison, here are some pictures of one that I'm sure is a fire. Typical diffused head pattern, no belly checks (although some color bleeding and clear scales lower down), and some lateral diffusion. Does masque affect the lateral diffusion?
albertagirl
Sharan
Right, amel = no black. I just thought the lack of black may appear as lack of color entirely, rather than as a different color, in this case orange.
So much to learn, so much to learn!!
I'm finding this very educational, and will continue to follow this discussion to help me make my final decision. Thanks so much for taking the time!
Jace91
New member
Who did you buy her from? She's stunning.
albertagirl
Sharan
This is one of the things that's throwing me off too. Mine doesn't seem to have any diffusion. Here's another picture that *almost* shows her sides.
Her sides look like my (possible) amel masques - little to no diffusion. I should have taken pictures of that too.
albertagirl
Sharan
No doubt she's beautiful! And very docile. I'll send you a PM.
albertagirl
Sharan
And these babies without the obvious diffusion on the sides, they still... diffuse? As adults you still end up with a fairly solid colored animal?
albertagirl
Sharan
LOL fair enough. I guess nature just refuses to be 100% predictable. :laugh:
Shiari
Blutterer
When I get home, I'll grab some pictures of the granite and the two plasmas I hatched out. They have amazingly craptacular diffusion. It's truly terrible, but their bellies are very different from the ones being shown. There is no color bleed on the necks, and the regularity of that 'bleed' says checkers to me, what with the alternating. I hatched out a charcoal like that, but everyone at the time agreed that he was a charcoal and not a pewter.
Here is the thread: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123489
He even had the 'clear' patches in the belly scutes. But he was also the only one out of 39 eggs to hatch out like that. The rest, while some had extreme masque expression, were obviously 'just' charcoals. I do not believe he was actually a pewter. The odds of him being the ONLY pewter out of that many eggs is so remote that it's heading into scientific notation territory.
Here is the thread: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123489
He even had the 'clear' patches in the belly scutes. But he was also the only one out of 39 eggs to hatch out like that. The rest, while some had extreme masque expression, were obviously 'just' charcoals. I do not believe he was actually a pewter. The odds of him being the ONLY pewter out of that many eggs is so remote that it's heading into scientific notation territory.
albertagirl
Sharan
I'm going to sleep on it, but I think I'll probably end up taking her back. Do breeders hate customers like me?? I feel terrible about it, but as the experts (in my mind) if you can't agree on what she is, then I don't feel I can be sure. I have no doubt that the breeder is completely honest and sincere, but I also know that this baby could easily have been accidentally switched with one from another clutch since they were in another's care, and no way to know for sure. It would be an honest mistake with no one at fault.
Hopefully tomorrow I can make better decisions... it will be easier, there will be fewer choices!
Hopefully tomorrow I can make better decisions... it will be easier, there will be fewer choices!
zorro
Old Guy
For years I have seen about any amel morph hatch that was bloodred like fires and sulfurs had terrible diffusion. Then more and more showed clearer sides and better looking.
Just my option but with the limited pics I would vote it being a fire but not the best example. The clear parts of the belly has turned out to be a indicator of diffused in all of the cases I've been a part of. Also something in the head is screaming at me "fire".
If it were me and the snake was a sweetheart I would be tempted to keep it and maybe get a small refund back from the seller just for the lack of quality. If you decide later on to get a better example of a fire, it would make a great starter for someone just getting into the hobby.
John
Just my option but with the limited pics I would vote it being a fire but not the best example. The clear parts of the belly has turned out to be a indicator of diffused in all of the cases I've been a part of. Also something in the head is screaming at me "fire".
If it were me and the snake was a sweetheart I would be tempted to keep it and maybe get a small refund back from the seller just for the lack of quality. If you decide later on to get a better example of a fire, it would make a great starter for someone just getting into the hobby.
John
pgr8dnlvr
An obsolete oldie...
Wow, flashback here, can't believe I get to do this "schpiel" again, it's sadly been a looooong while.
Ok so I am technically the "breeder" of this baby in question.
I used to produce quite a few corns, and for a number of years. Due to divorce I was forced to shut down my business asap and sell almost everything off. I was already "downsizing" as I feared in the back of my mind that I knew where things were headed so had VERY limited numbers of adults on site after brumation and also VERY limited breedings.
Almost all eggs didn't even get a chance to hatch at Triple-R rather they were sent off to Renee Drinkwater of Just Geckos for her to hatch and sell on a generous consignment. She really bailed my ass out in the end and has helped me ensure that the animals are safe and cared for until everything comes out in the wash. So... Here goes...
That animal is a bloodred (diffused) amelanistic het caramel. By definition an amelanistic bloodred is called by the common trade name Fire. I had no other amels produced other than strawberrys which are in no way like fires, so I feel a mix up by Renee or anyone else cleaning or feeding those animals could not have happened. I was the one who labeled these animals for Renee. She's not nor is she proporting to be a cornsnake person.
Now here is the catch...
In the old days of bloods (I'm assuming things are continuing to get better and better now with selective breeding) there was a division of terms/labels depending on the breeder and what they wanted to represent their quality.
Blood reds can be visually VERY different from one another, but the genetic indicators are a "clear" belly, and diffused sides hopefully with as bald a head as possible. "Clear belly" can be kind of misleading, because bloods, fires, granites can definitely have some sort of washed out patchy colour particularly on the outer edges of the bellies but it's usually pretty darn obvious if they are fully checked or not.
Some bloods turned out almost brown with saddle patterns that didn't wash out much. They were still genetically bloods and breeders could indeed sell them as such with still being honest, however many had an almost normal look to them.
Back in the day, I was one who wanted to really distinguish my bloods for being red and not sell the sub par as bloods, so I would most often label ones with poor diffusion, (too noticeable saddles and heads with too much colour) simply as "diffused" and sell those at a lower price or off to wholesale. That was the choice that I had made for MY reputation. I cannot fault any other breeder for doing what they wanted as their bloods were also bloods genetically. I STILL have seen other breeders labeling what I would simply call diffused as a blood.
So anyway, yes this snake is genetically a fire. Will it be a stunning solid bright orange red snake when its done growing? Very highly doubt it, I would bet money it won't. It absolutely can and likely will still grow up to be a very decent looking snake with some fun genetic traits to mess with breeding wise.
Value is very much in the eye of the beholder and is very static I find. Around our area there seems to be very few people still breeding corns, so with the lower supply Renee seems to be selling our limited babies at prices that are maybe a bit higher than they would have been a year or two ago, but aside from this, I haven't heard much complaint about her pricing. She is EXCELLENT though in fairness and honesty. She asked me right away about what we can do in this situation and forwarded emails. I'm pleased with how this is playing out.
I am not pleased about the driving you need to do though, for that I do feel sorry and apologize. There are no issues with taking this animal back for a full refund, and as said we can also offer you a $20 discount if you choose another available animal.
Thankyou for your conduct in the manner and I hope in the end you can get what you are truly happy with. Don't "settle" if you don't want to or don't have to.
Rebecca
Ok so I am technically the "breeder" of this baby in question.
I used to produce quite a few corns, and for a number of years. Due to divorce I was forced to shut down my business asap and sell almost everything off. I was already "downsizing" as I feared in the back of my mind that I knew where things were headed so had VERY limited numbers of adults on site after brumation and also VERY limited breedings.
Almost all eggs didn't even get a chance to hatch at Triple-R rather they were sent off to Renee Drinkwater of Just Geckos for her to hatch and sell on a generous consignment. She really bailed my ass out in the end and has helped me ensure that the animals are safe and cared for until everything comes out in the wash. So... Here goes...
That animal is a bloodred (diffused) amelanistic het caramel. By definition an amelanistic bloodred is called by the common trade name Fire. I had no other amels produced other than strawberrys which are in no way like fires, so I feel a mix up by Renee or anyone else cleaning or feeding those animals could not have happened. I was the one who labeled these animals for Renee. She's not nor is she proporting to be a cornsnake person.
Now here is the catch...
In the old days of bloods (I'm assuming things are continuing to get better and better now with selective breeding) there was a division of terms/labels depending on the breeder and what they wanted to represent their quality.
Blood reds can be visually VERY different from one another, but the genetic indicators are a "clear" belly, and diffused sides hopefully with as bald a head as possible. "Clear belly" can be kind of misleading, because bloods, fires, granites can definitely have some sort of washed out patchy colour particularly on the outer edges of the bellies but it's usually pretty darn obvious if they are fully checked or not.
Some bloods turned out almost brown with saddle patterns that didn't wash out much. They were still genetically bloods and breeders could indeed sell them as such with still being honest, however many had an almost normal look to them.
Back in the day, I was one who wanted to really distinguish my bloods for being red and not sell the sub par as bloods, so I would most often label ones with poor diffusion, (too noticeable saddles and heads with too much colour) simply as "diffused" and sell those at a lower price or off to wholesale. That was the choice that I had made for MY reputation. I cannot fault any other breeder for doing what they wanted as their bloods were also bloods genetically. I STILL have seen other breeders labeling what I would simply call diffused as a blood.
So anyway, yes this snake is genetically a fire. Will it be a stunning solid bright orange red snake when its done growing? Very highly doubt it, I would bet money it won't. It absolutely can and likely will still grow up to be a very decent looking snake with some fun genetic traits to mess with breeding wise.
Value is very much in the eye of the beholder and is very static I find. Around our area there seems to be very few people still breeding corns, so with the lower supply Renee seems to be selling our limited babies at prices that are maybe a bit higher than they would have been a year or two ago, but aside from this, I haven't heard much complaint about her pricing. She is EXCELLENT though in fairness and honesty. She asked me right away about what we can do in this situation and forwarded emails. I'm pleased with how this is playing out.
I am not pleased about the driving you need to do though, for that I do feel sorry and apologize. There are no issues with taking this animal back for a full refund, and as said we can also offer you a $20 discount if you choose another available animal.
Thankyou for your conduct in the manner and I hope in the end you can get what you are truly happy with. Don't "settle" if you don't want to or don't have to.
Rebecca
pgr8dnlvr
An obsolete oldie...
By the way Alberta Girl you are NOT a customer that breeders would hate. You have worded your messages and emails very professionally and have been more than patient. Trust me with the limited babies produced Renee has no qualms about taking that baby back She'll find the right home with someone else I'm sure!
Rebecca
She'll find the right home with someone else I'm sure! Rebecca