Fire or Amel Masque? Please help.

[hypnoctopus]

Thanks for clearing everything up! The parents are very pretty.

 

[Nanci]

I've got a lot of cool morphs here. A couple world's firsts, and some that are very rare. But the thing that makes a snake a fun pet- the one you go to when you have 50 to choose from- the one you take out to show a child- that's the snake with the super-sweet personality. The one that not only tolerates people, but seems to like being out.

There's no guarantee of what the finest baby is going to look like. They change so much. With bloodred in the equation, a wash of red is going to take over the pattern anyway. I think if you're happy with the _base_ coloration, it is only going to intensify as the snake matures.

 

[Nanci]

Here's a thread I made about how baby fires change.

 

[albertagirl]

Clear as mud!!

I used to produce quite a few corns, and for a number of years. Due to divorce I was forced to shut down my business asap and sell almost everything off. I was already "downsizing" as I feared in the back of my mind that I knew where things were headed so had VERY limited numbers of adults on site after brumation and also VERY limited breedings.

I had no other amels produced other than strawberrys which are in no way like fires, so I feel a mix up by Renee or anyone else cleaning or feeding those animals could not have happened.

Knowing this does make a huge difference!

Now here is the catch...

...yes this snake is genetically a fire. Will it be a stunning solid bright orange red snake when its done growing? Very highly doubt it, I would bet money it won't.

This, however, is not what I was hoping to hear.

It absolutely can and likely will still grow up to be a very decent looking snake with some fun genetic traits to mess with breeding wise.

Since I'm not looking to breed, looks are more important to me than genetics. But here's where I'm also torn. Since these are just pets, personality is also possibly more important than looks. I am conflicted!

Value is very much in the eye of the beholder and is very static I find. Around our area there seems to be very few people still breeding corns, so with the lower supply Renee seems to be selling our limited babies at prices that are maybe a bit higher than they would have been a year or two ago, but aside from this, I haven't heard much complaint about her pricing.

Just to be clear, I had no problem with the price, I only meant to comment that the price for a fire is (and should be) higher than the price for an amel. (off topic question, since I haven't been watching local breeders so much as morphs, which are definitely increasing! Are we decreasing in numbers of canadian breeders? I wonder why?)

She is EXCELLENT though in fairness and honesty. She asked me right away about what we can do in this situation and forwarded emails. I'm pleased with how this is playing out.

I am not pleased about the driving you need to do though, for that I do feel sorry and apologize. There are no issues with taking this animal back for a full refund, and as said we can also offer you a $20 discount if you choose another available animal.

Thankyou for your conduct in the manner and I hope in the end you can get what you are truly happy with. Don't "settle" if you don't want to or don't have to.

Rebecca

Thank you so much for being open to a trade or return. And for all this additional information! You and Renee have both been amazing to deal with... and yet I still can't seem to make up my mind. I keep going back and forth on the personality vs looks thing. I know I need to decide *right now*, since it's time to hit the road *right now* if I'm going to bring her back.

 

[Isoldael]

@pgr8dnlvr - is there no chance that this could be a case of retained sperm?

@albertagirl - while I very much respect the opinions of the other people who posted here, I personally feel that this is indeed a masque amel and not a fire. Why do I say this? Not so much because of the split belly checkers on the belly pictures you posted (which could be bleeding resembling belly checkers), but rather the lateral view you posted on one of the next pages. Part of the belly pattern starts on the very lower parts of the sides of the snake, and those are clearly present in your girl. This to me is a clear indication of masque rather than diffused. As for the clear patches on the belly, I've been made aware by several large breeders that this is a feature of masque (possibly homo masque) rather than the diffused gene.

 

[albertagirl]

The verdict is in...

Everyone, and especially Rebecca, thanks so much for your information, patience, and advice. :bowdown:

I just went and spent a few minutes with her to make my final decision, and she flattened her head right out and crawled slowly straight for my face. I'm not sure if she wanted to check me out but found it intimidating, or if she was going to try to eat me, but it sure was cute... and spooky. Anyway, other than that she reinforced that she has a very calm disposition (you know, for a baby) and she's darn cute to boot! SO... drum roll...

I will be keeping her! I decided that her excellent temperament makes up for any lack of diffusion, and since there's no way she was mislabelled, I guess there's still a possibility her pattern may wash out a lot. Even if she never becomes solid colored, she will sure be bright!

Since she sparked so much discussion, the term "rant'n'rave" came to me. But I don't feel that anybody was ranting, and she is a riot of color, so I think I'm going to name her "Rave'N'Riot". Rave, or Rave'N for short. What do you all think? I'm so happy and relieved to have made a decision! :dancer:

 

[albertagirl]

@pgr8dnlvr - is there no chance that this could be a case of retained sperm?

@albertagirl - while I very much respect the opinions of the other people who posted here, I personally feel that this is indeed a masque amel and not a fire. Why do I say this? Not so much because of the split belly checkers on the belly pictures you posted (which could be bleeding resembling belly checkers), but rather the lateral view you posted on one of the next pages. Part of the belly pattern starts on the very lower parts of the sides of the snake, and those are clearly present in your girl. This to me is a clear indication of masque rather than diffused. As for the clear patches on the belly, I've been made aware by several large breeders that this is a feature of masque (possibly homo masque) rather than the diffused gene.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:noevil:

Just kidding. The decision has been made, but carry on with the debate...

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

No chance of retained sperm as this was a virgin girl. Little chance of original labels on parents being mixed up since they were from Rob and Louise Stevens of Bayou Reptiles who were absolutely knowledgable and very trustworthy.

I think the decrease in breeders has everything to do with the general crash in the reptile market both sides of the border. Its hard for people to continue on with a species that takes so much more work and money in supplies to maintain and breed than other species (perhaps think of ball pythons) then turn around and have to sell these animals for $15-$25 to local pet shops.

The prices of rodents alone since I started this venture has gone up more than 50%. EVERYTHING is more expensive. A lot of "bigger" breeders did have a passion for the animals, but unfortunately one can not survive on passion alone.

For me, I had to lose the house and now have my daughter depending on me to get a regular paycheck instead of the rollercoaster paychecks that came along with the business. Couple that with the difficulty I had finding a NICE respectable rental place that would not run screaming when I said I had so many snakes. Yes you can find a rental which will accept reptiles, but I'd rather have my daughter finish growing up in a nice neighborhood with a clean well kept house.

I must say I've been quite pleasantly surprised at the direct retail demand and prices this year, however I fear for the pet stores. Their sales still seem to be WAY down...

Rebecca

 

[Isoldael]

I really like the name Seems to fit her well!

 

[hypnoctopus]

Well I'm glad you decided to keep her. As I said previously, I think she's really pretty and since she's going to be a pet, personality is very important and it sounds like she has a good one.

Just a general question, is it possible for a snake to be both diffused and masque? Or are they on the same locus?

 

[albertagirl]

No chance of retained sperm as this was a virgin girl. Little chance of original labels on parents being mixed up since they were from Rob and Louise Stevens of Bayou Reptiles who were absolutely knowledgable and very trustworthy.

I think the decrease in breeders has everything to do with the general crash in the reptile market both sides of the border. Its hard for people to continue on with a species that takes so much more work and money in supplies to maintain and breed than other species (perhaps think of ball pythons) then turn around and have to sell these animals for $15-$25 to local pet shops.

The prices of rodents alone since I started this venture has gone up more than 50%. EVERYTHING is more expensive. A lot of "bigger" breeders did have a passion for the animals, but unfortunately one can not survive on passion alone.

For me, I had to lose the house and now have my daughter depending on me to get a regular paycheck instead of the rollercoaster paychecks that came along with the business. Couple that with the difficulty I had finding a NICE respectable rental place that would not run screaming when I said I had so many snakes. Yes you can find a rental which will accept reptiles, but I'd rather have my daughter finish growing up in a nice neighborhood with a clean well kept house.

I must say I've been quite pleasantly surprised at the direct retail demand and prices this year, however I fear for the pet stores. Their sales still seem to be WAY down...

Rebecca

Thank God for virgin girls! :laugh:

Corns are more work/money than ball pythons? I never would have guessed that!

Hopefully you can rebuild in the future when your circumstances change again. I will look forward to that possibility for my own selfish reasons, but also wish you the best. Starting over with your whole life is so hard.

 

[Nanci]

Masque is a separate gene.

 

[albertagirl]

Aaaaand now I can't add her to my signature, because the system wraps the two lines into 4 really short lines... and then tells me I can only have 2 lines. ????? I don't even know where to post a question about how to fix this.

 

[Isoldael]

Just a general question, is it possible for a snake to be both diffused and masque? Or are they on the same locus?

They are two separate genes on different loci In fact, a large number of diffused snakes are also masque

 

[Nanci]

Aaaaand now I can't add her to my signature, because the system wraps the two lines into 4 really short lines... and then tells me I can only have 2 lines. ????? I don't even know where to post a question about how to fix this.

Hmm, you should be able to have four lines! Can you try a smaller font?

 

[albertagirl]

Hmm, you should be able to have four lines! Can you try a smaller font?

It works if I make it this small.