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Hoping To See Dr. Kevorkian Tomorrow

snakewispera snr said:
Now that the debate is starting to open up, can I ask the question?
Where do we draw the line?
If we allow the termination of terminally ill people, Will we then start to look at others that we think need to be terminated? Is it really our decision to terminate someone?
If they want to go should we help? As it is a killing which ever way you look at it.
MIKE
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I believe Dr. Kervorkian's patients were terminally ill adults who were mentally competant and made the decision that they did not want to live in pain and suffering any longer. Why shouldn't a person have that right? Why shouldn't a person, who is going to die anyway, be able to die with dignity, at a time of their choosing? What business is it of anyone's to tell them, no, you have to suffer until your body finally gives out, even though you don't want to. If it weren't a crime, think of the peaceful deaths these people could have, with their family gathered around, able to say everything they had in their hearts, able to say goodbye in comfort.
 
Ok - my personal view:

Yes, i do think in some cases it could be kinder to euthanize a human in the same way we do for animals. BUT - that is where I would fear to tread, for reasons stated by others, earlier - who decides, and where does it end? I would not be comfortable with somebody (anybody!) making that decision for another person, even though it means sometimes we must be kinder to animals than to a human.

BUT - making that decision for somebody else is, in my opinion, a far cry from allowing an adult, rational human to make that decision FOR HIM / HERSELF, and to allow that person whatever help they feel is needed to arrange it.

I have heard the arguments that the person in question may make the wrong decision because of a bad day, pain, or whatever. And so we should have some precautions to manage pain as well as possible, avoid impulse decisions, etc. But in the end, it is my deep belief that one's own body should be under the jurisdiction of the owner of that body. It can be between that person, his conscience, faith, family, or whatever is important to him or her. But it should not be my decision (or anyone else's) decision, and should be based only on what is important to the person in question, not anybody else.

I would be open to hear other opinions. But every other view I have considered brings up ethical issues of who is allowed to make decisions for whom, and why those decision makers are qualified to decide the fate of other people.
 
I agree with both Nanci and Kathy
My argument is. If we allow the termination of anyone it becomes a government issue....
If I wanted to off myself now, I don't need any doctors to help me.
My local drug dealer could supply me with enough heroin to do the job just as well as any chemist.. I could make the decision I could buy the stuff (god knows, it is available on any street corner) and I could choose...
I don't want to take anyones right away from them, I just don't want it to become a matter of course...
MIKE
 
SnakeCreations said:
What I've found, being a liberal living in a conservative state, is that most don't really care what your opinion is, they just want to and strive to change it.
Tonya
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I almost fell off my chair when I realized there was a conservative in my state. Someone left the gate open.:rofl:

I have to agree with Kathy again. I have watched a very close friend die of colon cancer and my Father-in-law die of lung cancer. In both cases they underwent surgery when it was an option. They lived with untold pain. They underwent kemo therapy and were miserable for months on end with no relief in site. The both had nothing to look forward to but sickness and death.

They both said they would rather be dead. I am very glad it was not my decision to make. I would have fought violently with anyone that tried to make that decision for them. I wish I had been able to accommodate them.
 
I deleted most of what I had to say because it was too controversial. But if someone doesn't want to be here, is suffering, feels life no longer has any value, and they want to go, why not let them. Who am I to make a decision like this for another person? Nor would I want another to make this decision for me.
 
You wouldn't believe the number of failed attempted suicides I have seen, at work. Some people have this plan- this is what I'd do if I became terminally ill and no longer wanted to go on- except when the time actually comes, there you are, trapped in a hospital bed, without access to a drug overdose, or a heroin dealer, or a gun, or to scuba diving so deep you're narced out of your mind and don't care if you drown (that's what a lot of my friends proclaim they'd do). You shouldn't have to ask your spouse/family for help, if they even would! Who wants to be responsible for killing their parent? Yet you don't want them to suffer. But you, selfishly, want to keep them till the last possible second, so _you_ don't have to hurt sooner. I speak with the experience of someone who has lost both parents- one over an excruciatingly long time, one suddenly with no warning at all.

I'll go even further- I wouldn't want to be a Terry Shiavo. I would hope that, left helpless after an accident, after all the technology/science proclaimed that I was never going to wake up, that I was no longer there, that my brain had died and was unrecoverable, that my family would have the sense to not keep me alive as a vegetable. Fortunately, I have protection in the form of my doctor sister, a brain injury specialist, who I trust to make the right decision. Plus, being an organ donor, hopefully that decision would be made in a timely fashion.
 
I waited to post because I was afraid this would turn into a battle. I'm so happy it hasn't. Like Janine I have mixed views as I was an emergency room nurse. I saw death from every angle murder, suicide, accidents... Children were always the hardest. One child sticks out in my mind a small girl who came into the ER many times. She had fallen in a pool, she suffered severe brain damage due to lack of oxygen. Whenever she came in she looked so beautiful her hair was fixed, her jamies were always pink and very cute. She had a catheter, and a trach tube, she had no idea of her surrouding, none. Her family was horrified when the accident happened saddened beyond belief and every time she came in, her parents begged the visiting nurse not to bring her in. They were young parents and very much loved this daughter. I'm not sure which way I would have gone on her life and very glad it wasn't even a decision for anyone at the time. What I did see was parents who would be in debt for the rest of their lives because of medical bills.
I understand what people are saying when they say what if it goes beyond our choice, what if it becomes a pure case of who can afford the care, or the insurance runs out. We have right to die laws in Oregon, I've had one friend go to the doctor, she had a rare type of cancer. The doctor turned her down because, when he finally got to see her he was an hour late for the appointment in his office, she was cold, tired and cranky. He deemed her not ready to make this decision. A few weeks later she died in her home surrounded by friends, I'm very sure some friend helped her pass. Was it a good decision for her, yes, but is it right for everyone, no. susang
 
OK here it goes... I realize this will be offensive to some. Keep in mind it is just my opinion and I'll be very happy if I am wrong. But-
There are already too many of us homo sapiens. We keep breeding and breeding. Sooner or later I fear Mother Earth will balance herself and it will entail a lot of suffering and dying for a lot of people. I have chosen not to have children myself, but I can't make this choice for others. Just as I can't decide who should bring more life into this overburdened planet, I can't decide who should take life away. I just hope humans will never reach a point where instead of humane euthanasia of those who are suffering poor quality of life, we are forced to cull people for more selfish reasons like the fact there is not enough food to go around...
 
shed'n my skin said:
OK here it goes... I realize this will be offensive to some. Keep in mind it is just my opinion and I'll be very happy if I am wrong. But-
There are already too many of us homo sapiens. We keep breeding and breeding. Sooner or later I fear Mother Earth will balance herself and it will entail a lot of suffering and dying for a lot of people. I have chosen not to have children myself, but I can't make this choice for others. Just as I can't decide who should bring more life into this overburdened planet, I can't decide who should take life away. I just hope humans will never reach a point where instead of humane euthanasia of those who are suffering poor quality of life, we are forced to cull people for more selfish reasons like the fact there is not enough food to go around...
Click to expand...

I dont' think you are wrong, maybe not in my lifetime, maybe not 2012. But what is that saying "the times they are a changin".
 
shed'n my skin said:
OK here it goes... I realize this will be offensive to some. Keep in mind it is just my opinion
Jen, you are one brave lady. My hat is off to you.

Unfortunately I agree. Humans have become a burden on this planet. If any other species over populated the earth like we have there would be a bounty on them. Science would be working overtime to solve the problem.

I don't know where it will end. Humans won't recognize the problem until it is too late to fix it. All the solutions are bad and unacceptable.

Being an old guy is not all bad. I won't be here to see it. My kids probably won't either. I'm afraid their kids will.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
"...Who am I to make a decision like this for another person? Nor would I want another to make this decision for me."

A very succinct statement of what I was trying to say in a much more verbose way!

To shed'n my skin, I say..
...Soylent Green..."It's people...eek..." (sorry, old, old movie - couldn't resist).
 
snakewispera snr said:
Now that the debate is starting to open up, can I ask the question?
Where do we draw the line?
If we allow the termination of terminally ill people, Will we then start to look at others that we think need to be terminated? Is it really our decision to terminate someone?
If they want to go should we help? As it is a killing which ever way you look at it.
MIKE
Click to expand...

I must admit that I stopped reading shortly after this post (I'm out of spare time for the day), but I had to comment on this one. I believe we were talking about assisted suicide. If you kill someone against their will, that is wrong in many instances. (Killing an attacker against his will to save yourself is self defense and is NOT wrong.)

In this case, we were talking about someone deciding to take their OWN life. That's their business. The .gov has no right to say I can or can not terminate my own life. It IS mine, after all. I give the .gov permission to do what it can - not the reverse. There should be NO minimum amount of "illness" to justify MY own right to end my life.

If it is a sin (whatever THAT is), that is between me and my "dear & fluffy Lord" - the .gov has nothing to do with it.

Hey, anyone recognize what series that quote comes from???
KJ
 
kathylove said:
"...Who am I to make a decision like this for another person? Nor would I want another to make this decision for me."

A very succinct statement of what I was trying to say in a much more verbose way!

To shed'n my skin, I say..
...Soylent Green..."It's people...eek..." (sorry, old, old movie - couldn't resist).
Click to expand...

I love that movie! It scares me though.
 
I was just thinking about Soylent Green as I was reading through these posts. I didn't want to ruin anyone's lunch though :)
 
I am stunned by the decorum and down right politeness we have all displayed. People have spoken their minds. Spooky
 
I'll throw another aspect of health care into the discussion. In the next few years as the baby boomers get older and there are less and less resources and fewer and fewer dollars, will we still try to keep everyone alive at all costs? Will we have to put guidelines into place as to who qualifies for chemo, dialysis, certain surgeries, intensive care .....

We are incredibly lucky in the Western world to have the luxury to discuss these topics. It is not hard to imagine that in the future it will not be an ethical/moral/personal decision but an economic one.
 
I am thoroughly impressed as well, I didn't want to post what I really felt at first. I had to rewrite, reread, and rewrite it a few times before posting because I really do not want to offend anyone's sensibilities. But I am afraid I may have taken the thread a bit off-topic. Nanci do please let us know how the lecture by Kevorkian went, I really felt it was harsh he had to serve jail time for what he did.
 
KJUN said:
If it is a sin (whatever THAT is), that is between me and my "dear & fluffy Lord" - the .gov has nothing to do with it.

Hey, anyone recognize what series that quote comes from???
KJ
Click to expand...

It's not from Firefly, it's from the movie Serenity. :p

I think modern society has an unhealthy obsession with death. Many societies in days past saw death as part of a natural cycle and celebrated it as they mourned their loss. Today we do everything we can to avoid it. It's seen as bad and terrible, but it happens to everyone. Modern civilization needs to treat death with a little more maturity. I think that forcing someone that makes the choice to die to live in debilitating pain is cruel and selfish.

But it's a hard thing. There are no easy answers when it comes to one's own choice to die - particularly when that person requires help to make it happen. I support the right of someone to choose their own time to die. I'm not sure there's really any other compassionate choice.
 
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