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The Downside of Breeding...

Sucks that such a beautiful snake had to die... It makes me re-think breeding snakes and breeders themselves. I don't think I'll ever understand this aspect of the hobby. Personally, I wouldn't blame "Murphy", not at all. Sorry if this sounds harsh but that's pretty much how I feel.
 
Ah it doesn't sound harsh to me at all.. It is a risk we all have to face, when we do this hobby.. However your words have been noted!

Regards. Tim of T and J
 
Oh, I'm so sorry you guys had to go through this and lose such a beautiful snake, hopefully the eggs will go on to produce healthy hatchlings, who will be great feeders!

And I'm sure a lot worse happens in the wild, at least us humans are able to help most girls out when they have problems laying.

Keep your chins up, at least you know you did everything you could for her :)

Best wishes,
 
SnakesRule1234 said:
Sucks that such a beautiful snake had to die... It makes me re-think breeding snakes and breeders themselves. I don't think I'll ever understand this aspect of the hobby. Personally, I wouldn't blame "Murphy", not at all. Sorry if this sounds harsh but that's pretty much how I feel.
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The amusing part about breeders and breeding snakes is without us there would be no snakes for the "hobby". Those beautiful snakes like TandJ's Striped Amel don't exist in the wild for us to admire. So we take some calculated risks with extremely small loss ratios to produce beautiful snakes so people can enjoy them for a hobby. I abhor losing an animal and I spare no expense, monetarily or time wise in the care of my animals. Strange things happen even when you don't breed them. Breeding is not for everyone and I'm glad it's not. The responsibility is huge and not to be taken lightly. I don't make light of any loss of life and I'm sorry Magnolia didn't make it. But in the snake world she is a great success because she procreated. So maybe we should try to take comfort in that. I look forward to seeing her progeny.
Sorry for your loss.
Terri
 
stephen said:
Thats sucks! I did try to tell you how to solve it. Sorry to hear the terrable outcome...:cry:
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I know Stephen, and I had fully expected to use your advice. Tim had even bought what we'd need so we could get her taken care of before he got home that day only to find that we were too late. =(

SnakesRule1234 said:
Sucks that such a beautiful snake had to die... It makes me re-think breeding snakes and breeders themselves. I don't think I'll ever understand this aspect of the hobby. Personally, I wouldn't blame "Murphy", not at all. Sorry if this sounds harsh but that's pretty much how I feel.
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I don't quite get the point(s) you are trying to make.

You stated in your post: "Sucks that such a beautiful snake had to die... It makes me re-think breeding snakes and breeders themselves." How does one tragic story make you 'rethink' breeding and breeders? Is it all stories like this, or just my tale? I could understand if you'd said that reading about what happened to our snake made you consider not taking the risk of breeding your own snakes (if you have any and had planned to breed them), but I don't get the part where the 'breeders' come in.

To me, and it just may be that I'm not reading your intent between the lines or reading something into them that wasn't your intent, it seems as if you are saying that because something bad happened to ONE of my snakes - that all snake breeders are wrong to breed snakes because something like this MIGHT happen again. Can you please elaborate on what you meant when you posted what you did?

"I don't think I'll ever understand this aspect of the hobby." I'm guessing you were referring to breeding here, and like Terri said, if not for snake breeders breeding snakes, there'd be no fancy morphs from recessive genes. I think there'd also be far fewer snakes available to people because the only way to procure an animal would be to capture one from the wild or buy one from someone who captured it from the wild.

There are, in many places, regulations against taking animals from the wild (due to a number of reasons) or limiting the number that can be caught, sold, or kept. So, basically, to sum it up - without breeders breeding more snakes there'd be far fewer people who could be enjoying their 'pets'. The whole idea is much more elaborate than that, but I just summarized it to reply.

Finally: "Personally, I wouldn't blame "Murphy", not at all." This is the statement that really bothers me the most. I see this statement as an underhand way of accusing me and my husband of being at fault for what happened to our snake. If you feel we are at fault, just say so - why bother trying to be subtle? I have always admitted to fault when I know I am to blame - whether intentionally or accidentally.

'Murphy' is not another person we are trying to place blame on - 'Murphy' is simply a way to represent the notion or belief that sometimes bad things happen and you can't do a dang thing about it. 'Murphy' is the unknown or unexpected factors that throw a wrench in the best laid plans. Simply put, 'Murphy' is the bad luck that sometimes visits people at the worst possible moment.

You could argue that since we knowingly bred Magnolia that the blame is inherently ours because she'd still be alive if we hadn't taken steps to breed her. So, what about the other 11 snakes we bred this year that had no trouble laying their clutches? Those were just flukes? We were simply lucky? That they are just future accidents waiting to happen?

But, by your logic 'LUCK' good or bad, doesn't figure into any portion of the breeding. Meaning that it must be something we did that made those 11 females have good clutches and we must have done something wrong with the 1 female that didn't. Even though we gave the SAME exact care to each of those 12 snakes.

Gave all twelve properly prepared lay boxes, made sure all twelve always had clean, fresh water available, and offered each of the twelve the same number of meals during their gestation period. Monitored their conditions, both before and after breeding them, as well as monitoring them during and after the laying process.

And yet, even though those other 11 had no troubles, we are doing something wrong because we lost this one female before we really even had a chance to do anything to help her.

Is this what you meant or did I miss your point completely? Am I only partially right? Way off base? Please, correct me and clarify your post. I'm open to hearing other people's opinions.
 
Jenn and Tim, sorry to have read about your recent loss. It definitely bites, but you always have to look ahead and find the positive. Not sure what that may be in this situation, but it will show up sooner or later.

D80
 
Ture that Brent.. True that. ... Sometimes disappointments open the door to a whole new view..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
SnakesRule1234 said:
I doesn't matter what I meant by my post... just ignore it. I think my post was pretty clear, if not, sorry.
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Your post may have been perfectly clear to you - which stand to reason, as it was your post - but that doesn't mean everyone can read and understand your intent. If you didn't intend for your meaning to be conveyed clearly, or even to post a clearer wording when asked, why post the veiled accusation at all?

Why should I ignore what you hinted at? Don't I have a right to defend myself when accused in such a manner? If you want your post ignored, why again did you bother posting it in the first place? Why cast doubts upon mine and my husbands reputation, without clearing stating your meaning or intentions, and than cry out when questioned about said intentions and meaning?

If you really believe that we were in the wrong somewhere, than state so - maybe I can change your mind by presenting my own facts clearer or you can open my eyes to something I might have done differently.

And how in the world is it, that we are automatically to blame about the unexpected death of our snake, and yet in a similar situation that you had of an unexpected death, it was just a tragic accident?

I'm referring to to this thread here: What did I do wrong?

In your case it could have been just bad luck, or that snake was just doomed from the start, so why can't it be the same in ours? Simply because we chose to breed her? If you ask me I think it's a double standard...

But, asking you to post a clarified response would be redundant because, as you said, I should just forget that you cast aspirations on my character. So, you should just forget that I attempted to get a clarification on your supposed double standards. Wouldn't want to cause friction you know...
 
Jenn (and Tim), as ambiguous as snakesrule1234's comments were, I get the jist of it, as I think most of us do. And my respect for this poster has fallen considerably as a result. (Not that people of that caliber care anyway). It is easy to see that you and Tim did everything you could for Magnolia. You aren't the first to lose a girl to this, and sadly you won't be the last. I know this happened so fast there was nothing to be done, and most of the time the story has a different ending. You still have my deepest sympathies. This will probably hurt awhile and for that I'm really sorry.
Beth
 
I'm so sorry you lost Magnolia, my deepest sympathy.

As for breeding, the same thing goes with any captive animal breeding/husbandry. I've bred Pekingese dogs for years, usually not more than one or two litters a year, because I was showing for a long time--never bred to sell, and I've certainly never made a dime; expenses are very high. Cost of maintaining, showing and most of all, vet bills, esp. since the majority of Pekes have to have c-sections. But the problems, the losses, not really different. My first litter, the mother rejected the two pups and I followed the vet's advice to tube feed them, but even so they died at 9 and 10 days. I was so devastated, I had to think very hard about continuing on. I decided it was either going to make me or break me; I went the former road. But it wasn't easy, and I've had my share of losses over the years. I no longer breed but still have a few dogs to love.

I love my snakes, and even though I'm just starting breeding, I am realistic and know that something is bound to happen eventually. But I'll seek the best advice and do the best I can. I know that's what you did, and you are all the wiser for it.

Best wishes!
 
Oh Jenn, I'm so sad to hear of your loss. Even if you're not that attached to a snake it's still hard to see an upturned belly. I was devastated at the loss of a freebee non feeder. I was determined that I would get him to start eating and gaining weight. Although he did take a few meals he never really grew. I never really believed that he wouldn't make it until I found him dead.

He was raised in the exact same manor as the other 3 snakes I bought at the same time as him, and they're all doing fine. Just another example of why it is NOT your fault when something like this happens. It's hard not to feel guilty or like it's your fault. I hope you're not being too hard on yourself though.

I'm really proud of you for coming to the forum and stating what happened to everyone. When something bad happens with one of my snakes (like the example I gave above) I withdraw from the forum and take a break from it. Weather it be shame or not wanting to see everyone else's snakes doing well I have a tendency to shrink down into a little hole. I think it takes a lot of strength and courage to post something like this, especially right when it happened when you're feeling your worst, knowing that there will always be ignorant people who reply along with the support replys.

As far as why this happened, I'm shocked because Magnolia looks very fit. I do not think I'll be pairing up my snakes for awhile, just because I know I'm not ready yet, but eventually I think I would like to make use of the awesome hets my snakes have. I've been concerned about one of my 2 year old yearlings because she feels a bit mushy around the lower half. No matter HOW long I go in between feedings it seems like she will NOT get off her but and start roaming her tub. I think the longest I've gone without giving her a meal was a month, and I still didn't see much activity. It's very scary to think that a female who seems fit and healthy can have something as tragic and sudden happen to her. I think the most we can deduct is that she had past health problems.

If you do get any nice stripes that you don't want to keep perhaps I will take one. I have a nice striped snow girl and a possible cubed (I can't tell by his pattern, won't know until I breed) snow boy. California isn't too far away, so maybe we could do some kind of breeding loan in the future. You guys are in southern Cali though, which is quite a ways from me. :/ I enjoy train rides though, so you never know! Perhaps I'll make it to one of your South Cali BBQs!
 
I still expect to see her when I walk by the adult tubs - she was never as active as some of our other snakes, but she was out frequently enough. So far, all seven of the eggs she actually laid are still healthy, though the other seven have long since gone bad as we figured they would. Just over another month to go before they hatch.

It'd be really great to meet you in person. Even if you don't make it down for a BBQ, but are in the area, feel free to get in touch with us. It's always a pleasure meeting other members. =)
 
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