Science marches on

[vetusvates]

Russell, thank you for posting. I love the freedom for people to believe in what they love and admire and choose to believe in.
I studied Zoology. And I studied literature and philosophy, too.
Regarding the former (literature), I learned about metaphor and the literal versus figurative interpretations of things.....which helps me understand a lot of things in Life, and gives me alternative ways of expressing myself.
Regarding the latter (philosophy), I learned the nature of spirituality, the infinite varieties of it, the human need for it.....and the difference between the spiritual world and the material/corporal world.
Yet I still do not possess the words to describe the beauty of how everything I have learned in Life comes together, and is entirely inter-compatible, almost like (metaphorically) a beautiful fantastic tapestry of the universe....in four dimensions : those of height, width, depth, and temporal (time).

 

[Jynx]

As much as I would like to support your determination of cognitive dissonance, I just can't because this is still not fact. It is still theorized... now its a theory with quite a bit of support. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you otherwise, but we can't outright say that anyone is wrong in this aspect.

I think Ida is a great discovery. Even if you put no stock in evolution, we are staring at a 47 million year old species branch in the... bone! We are looking at the actual branch itself; evolution in its most corporeal form, not just theorizong that lemurs and monkeys "probably" split at some point... How many people get to say that?! This is a discovery worth celebrating, no matter who or what you do or do not call God.

Plus, Ida is my grandmother's name.

 

[Chip]

Russell, do you believe in the bible literally?

 

[jen murphy]

That is an amazing discovery! I am even more amazed by the fact that someone had that hanging in his house and we had to wait 20 yrs to see it!

 

[tsst]

I am definitely no scientist but I do have a question. How does one look at a 47 million year old part lemur-part monkey fossil and determine that it is the missing link in human evolution rather than just a 47 million year old ancestor to the modern day chimp or lemur?

 

[vetusvates]

It's kind of like one of those 1000 piece puzzles my grandfather does. He has an entirely different response when he places the 1000th piece in place.....than he does for the first 999.

Hmmmm........Yes. I am content with this metaphor. On multiple levels.

 

[tom e]

It's kind of like one of those 1000 piece puzzles my grandfather does. He has an entirely different response when he places the 1000th piece in place.....than he does for the first 999.

Hmmmm........Yes. I am content with this metaphor. On multiple levels.

Well done, I owe you rep now!

 

[Nanci]

I am definitely no scientist but I do have a question. How does one look at a 47 million year old part lemur-part monkey fossil and determine that it is the missing link in human evolution rather than just a 47 million year old ancestor to the modern day chimp or lemur?

Because it combines aspects of both! It's like a lemur with fingernails, instead of claws!

 

[tom e]

rather than just a 47 million year old ancestor to the modern day chimp or lemur?

An ancestor to chimps is an ancestor to us, even though chimps are not an ancestor to us. Like Eric has pointed out, the ancestors closer to us are already pretty much in place. The last puzzle piece in this case is a very early ancestor on the 'primate line.'

 

[StormRose]

As much as I would like to support your determination of cognitive dissonance, I just can't because this is still not fact. It is still theorized...

Science is made up of theory, there's no such thing as scientific fact, or a proven theory. Even gravity is still a theory.

Some theories stand the test of time and can never be disproven or falsified, so people come to think of them as facts, but they are still in essence, theories.

I wrote a paper in college on evolution vs creationism (it's a long standing argument in my family), and my end result was about the same as Nanci's, I don't understand why one must negate the other. It's a beautiful, amazing world no matter how you believe it got here, and looking into the past just increases my fascination with it.

 

[JoannaD]

I had a professor in school who was an orthodox Jew. He taught reproductive endocrinology (if I remember correctly) and did basic science research. Someone asked him how he could be a scientist and a very religious man. How could he believe the world was created in 6 days.
He had no issue with it. He asked us how do we know what one of God's days is? Is it a human day, a human year, or millions of years!

He was a nice guy and a good professor. I could respect him. That's all I cared about!

 

[xerxes]

i'm sorry but i don't see how a lemur with fingernails proves anything. maybe i misread the article but did they explain how this is a missing link? Because all i saw was them just saying it was, no explanation how.

BTW I'm in the same boat as Russell when it comes to views, so feel free to judge:eatsmiley

 

[Russell]

Russell, do you believe in the bible literally?

That's a can of worms that needn't be opened! When the bible states, six days of creation, yes, I believe that. You do have to take the bible as a whole, not just pull out passages and take what was meant as imagry as literal! You get to know this by taking in the whole passage or chapter to get what is being implied. Taking things out of context is how we have so many cults today!

But what also seems to be forgotten by Christians and anti-Christian people is that there is so much more going on than the bible could ever cover! We don't know exactly how everything happened. It's very much like the puzzle those who believe in evolution are trying to peice together. Creationists do something similar, they see what's said in the bible, they see the evidence around them, and realize it fits and then try to expand on what they know. No different for either group really. We have the same pile of bones and we interpret them differently.

I haven't had anyone yet tell me why they have petrified trees that go through millions of layers vertically through the columns...how can trees that are vertical be present through millions of years of rock as you go up the layers? Be perfectly intact from top to bottom?

I have a geologist friend of mine, who started out as a geologist working for oil companies in the western states, and as time went by, he was totally convinced that what he was taught in school was wrong, and is now a Creation scientist. He was told by his professor back in college that he just had to trust by faith that his teaching was right....huh?

Your going to probably tend to go with whatever you were taught. Very few people will go against the flow and think about it. Most will get taught a little something, and hold onto it for dear life and defend it to the last! Used to be a time science taught that if you put an object inside a container, that it would turn into some sort of animal. We now know this not to be true...

 

[Nanci]

In depth discussion of the skeleton: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005723

A nice little article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30826552/

"This is the first link to all humans ... truly a fossil that links world heritage," Hurum said.

Here is some context for the age of the new primate fossil: Anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) first emerged about 200,000 years ago, but early humans such as Australopithecus afarensis and Australopithecus anamensis reach back 3 million to 4 million years ago or even earlier. Humans are thought to have split off from a group that includes chimpanzees and gorillas about 6 million years ago. And a group that includes all the great apes (including us) and Old World monkeys (called simians or anthropoids) diverged from New World monkeys in the Eocene, just after the time of Ida. So our primate roots reach back to this time.

(Aw, how she might have died): Death scenario

Ida lived at a time when mammals were evolving quickly on a planet that was basically a vast jungle. Early horses, bats, whales and many other creatures, including the first primates, thrived at this time when the climate was subtropical. The Himalayas were being formed.

X-rays reveal that a broken wrist may have contributed to Ida’s death — her left wrist was healing from a bad fracture, Hurum said.

She could have been overcome by carbon dioxide gas while drinking from the Messel lake: the still waters of the lake were often covered by a low-lying blanket of the gas as a result of the volcanic forces that formed the lake and which were still active.

Hampered by her broken wrist, Ida possibly slipped into unconsciousness, was washed into the lake and sunk to the bottom, where the unique conditions preserved her for 47 million years, Hurum said.

********************

Wouldn't it be so cool if there was time travel, so you could go back and see the world as it was then?

 

[wade]

You do have to take the bible as a whole, not just pull out passages and take what was meant as imagry as literal! You get to know this by taking in the whole passage or chapter to get what is being implied.

But what also seems to be forgotten by Christians and anti-Christian people is that there is so much more going on than the bible could ever cover!

Your going to probably tend to go with whatever you were taught. Very few people will go against the flow and think about it. Most will get taught a little something, and hold onto it for dear life and defend it to the last! Used to be a time science taught that if you put an object inside a container, that it would turn into some sort of animal. We now know this not to be true...

Russell, this is one of those great debates that are fun to talk about but will have no resolution. I have quoted some of your text here, and truly hope I did it fairly, I am not trying to change the substance of what you said.

In the second paragraph you used the terms Christians and anti-Christians. I just wanted to point out that a more fair and accurate term might be Christians and non-Christians. Just an observation.

I was brought up in a very religious home and probably taught the same things you were. In the US where most people are Christians I would think it fair to say that most evolutionists have given the idea a lot of thought and gone against the “flow”. I think many Christians have simply excepted what has been taught for thousands of years and not really questioned its validity.

One of the things that turned me against Christianity and the Bible was that everything was open to interpretation. Everybody has a different way to read it and come to different meanings. It has been edited and rewritten untold hundreds of times by all kinds of different people for different reasons. To know what the Bible says, you need to study it and then interrupt it. No two people come up with the same answer.

One thing that sets science apart from religion is that science will put an object in a bottle and try to determine if it will become an animal. They study and find faults with their reasoning and change the theories. They write it and rewrite it until everyone can understand it and come to the same conclusion. It must be demonstrable in such a way that anyone anywhere in the world can repeat your experiment and come up with the same results. Then it is considered a fact.

Religion tends to put an object in a bottle and wait for it to change into an animal. Then they say if it won’t turn into an animal it’s because you didn’t read the book correctly or you lack in faith. The fault is yours. If all else fails, “This is something we weren’t meant to understand at this time.”

 

[Michael823]

I really like your post Russell, and agree that there are far too many intricate details that go into creating the amazing world we live in, and the discovery of a 47 million year old primate doesn't even scratch the surface. I'm not religious, nor do I take scientific theories as truth. I feel that biblical and scientific theories are both human theories, and both should be equally questioned. I personally feel that people should be open to trying to understand both, because neither is 100% accurate.
I respect people that are Christian are defending what they believe, but I don't see why some people are so afraid to question at least some of what the bible says. I don't believe certain things that science has to say, and the Big Bang theory seems just as outrageous to me as the world being created in six days. And how does the human that wrote the Bible know how the world was created? I can't say with absolute certainty that it's wrong, but I strongly question it. I also strongly question how people can honestly believe the Big Bang theory, to think that we all came from some giant rock that just suddenly burst, then the organisms (which were initially created by?) evolved into humans that drive cars, go to sporting events, etc...
I don't think this discovery speaks a word in favor of either theory, but it's there, and a 47 million year old primate fossil should bring out more questions, rather than answers!

 

[Russell]

Wade,
you have very good points! Seriously! I myself am VERY leery of organized religion! I'm very leery when someone tries to use the bible to make you do anything. For me, the bible is a personal issue really. I like to find things out for myself. Although there are certainly obvious things clearly stated out for people in the bible, I do feel there are things personal for each individual.

There was a time I was in a church that was great for teaching the bible but was lacking in compassion for people and very judgemental. I felt they lined up more with the Pharisees in the bible than what Jesus taught! And they felt my snake hobby was of the devil! Now, back at that time I was somewhat unread as far as bible goes. I walked away from that church seeing gross hypocrisy. I'm a hypocrite too! I'm definetly NOT perfect all the time!

Now that I'm back into the book after walking away, I'm finding passages all the time that hey, speak to me on my hobby and the natural wonders around us. Passages that can mean different things to different people. Yes you can get more than one message from one story, example, whatever. That's not uncommon. The point I'm trying to make there is we are each so very different and are going to come away with different reactions to the same text. YES! Religion is a man infested creation. Faith in God is a relationship based on what is spelled out in his word. Most so called Christians just follow a religion based faith. Very few have a relationship faith. Big difference!

So, no, you won't find me in a bar, but I DO know passages where it mentions to give wine, and that they drank wine...Some fundamentalists try to make it sound like it wasn't wine like we have today... Says who???? The previous church way back when tried to tell me the bible says snake keeping is of the devil and shows devil possession... Oh really? To that garbage, I now say show me the money! LOL! I made up a thread on that on the other forum. I think it's rather interesting. Although I do wish to update it but haven't. Hopefully I don't get banned for posting the link!

http://www./forum/russells-world/5896-snakes-evil.html

Anyhow, we have totally gone off topic I think of the original person's intent to show this discovery that people of science are revealing to the world. It is very interesting.

I'm just saying, I have seen too much in my life to just believe we live this life and die, and nothing more.

I just got to add though, there is a lot more to Christian history that ever seems to get known by people. There were groups of different Christians right from the beginning. And the one group was famous for butchering the other group by burning them at the stake and such for NOT just being good little boys and girls and following the bigger Christian group that didn't like change, that was also famous for butchering scientists that came up with new information, such as...the world is round...ect...ect... The information is out there... But so few ever take the time to look cause we are after all and understandably busy!

 

[Russell]

I really like your post Russell, and agree that there are far too many intricate details that go into creating the amazing world we live in, and the discovery of a 47 million year old primate doesn't even scratch the surface. I'm not religious, nor do I take scientific theories as truth. I feel that biblical and scientific theories are both human theories, and both should be equally questioned. I personally feel that people should be open to trying to understand both, because neither is 100% accurate.
I respect people that are Christian are defending what they believe, but I don't see why some people are so afraid to question at least some of what the bible says. I don't believe certain things that science has to say, and the Big Bang theory seems just as outrageous to me as the world being created in six days. And how does the human that wrote the Bible know how the world was created? I can't say with absolute certainty that it's wrong, but I strongly question it. I also strongly question how people can honestly believe the Big Bang theory, to think that we all came from some giant rock that just suddenly burst, then the organisms (which were initially created by?) evolved into humans that drive cars, go to sporting events, etc...
I don't think this discovery speaks a word in favor of either theory, but it's there, and a 47 million year old primate fossil should bring out more questions, rather than answers!

I absolutely agree! One should NEVER just take another man's word for it, search things out for yourself! God NEVER intended people to just take it from some man. But rather to search the scriptures and for yourself find out what's in it. The whole church thing is to try to help with ideas of what is in it but good grief, too many churches won't back up what they try to say or claim with scripture! If it ain't in the book, and it ain't clear from the book, don't teach it! I really could get long winded on that point alone!

And yes, for me it's the amazing diversity of species. Just take frogs for example. How could a stomach brooding frog evolve? Or one that hatches them fully formed from it's back as several species do? I think frogs alone are just so amazing in all the different shapes, colors, and the way they live... I can't just say that all evolved. I too struggle with aspects that the church tries to teach and claim is in the bible, but I feel some of those issues they are trying to get blood out of a turnip! But there are plenty of other things that they can back up with clear scripture.

Yes I know there are a million different bible versions out there. That's another one of those things a poor soul should stop, think about, question, and do some research on all sides. Don't just take someone's word as truth just cause it's a website! Please do question!

 

[tsst]

It's kind of like one of those 1000 piece puzzles my grandfather does. He has an entirely different response when he places the 1000th piece in place.....than he does for the first 999.

Hmmmm........Yes. I am content with this metaphor. On multiple levels.

I like it. Though I think science is still on piece 20 not 1000.

44 million year gaps leave a lot of room for question (many pieces missing). It would seem a find like this would raise as many or more questions as answers. Maybe the lemur/monkey and humans are on two totally seperate lines that never connect or cross. Maybe the lemur/monkey regressed in 47 million years and grew a toilet claw and became todays lemur.

I think in science there are absolutes and there are theories. A scientific test to detect a breast cancer gene is absolute, whether Ida is part of a human evolutionary line is a theory. My belief is that some scientific theories require a leap of faith similar to religion. Who knows maybe, if we survive long enough and the earth survives us, in another few thousand years we will be on puzzle piece 300.

Awesome scientific find no matter what its meaning or place in history.

 

[jenneses]

Even Google is celebrating Ida: