yet another fine example

[Michael823]

As for the rest of the discussion, I am still unsure of what the health care plan will mean. By the sounds of it, I am glad it is getting criticized, as the people should be the deciding factor, and I won't defend Obama if this plan is really this foolish. I really hope it isn't the plan that you guys are reporting, but I fear it is. I need my disability money to survive, but hate that because of an abused system, hard working, tax paying citizens have the most difficult time getting by.
This thread is very insightful, everybody has made some very great points, and can understand where the majority of people's frustration is coming from. I very much like Obama, and really didn't want McCain/Palin to win, but I don't want to support something simply because Obama signed off on it.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I agree that athletes make sick money, and regulation is needed to even the disparity between average Americans. But this is an almost double edged sword, then we should look at lawyers, doctors, CEO's, lottery winners, singers, actors, etc... Sports is big business, their paychecks may not be equivalent to what they deserve, but the money the athletes make is earned one way or another. It makes me crazy too, they shouldn't get a fraction of those checks, but the owners make even more, and it's really the over consumption of alcohol, beauty products, car commercials, etc... that pays their salary.
I also think the generalization of Dog Fighters, drug users, and alcoholics is inaccurate. It probably isn't even a comparable figure compared to the rest of society, as it is mostly the mainstream alcohol consumption that gives them their millions. I have to agree with my brother and say that there are those who do give back, and it is a terrible disservice to those players that these stories aren't glorified instead. Sports media is just like any other, controversy will make papers fly off the rack quicker that a feel good story will.
Michael Vick committed a disgusting crime, but in all fairness he paid his
debt to society, lost all of his money (deservedly so), and really hasn't been glorified in the way most people think.

Yes, there are athletes and what-not that give back to the community. And I suppose we owe it to the media for not giving THEIR stories any airtime, and only showing the bad that allows me to generalize.

As far as the lottery winners, they put their money in, along with millions of people all over the country. They took the gamble, I have no concern if they make it back.

Lawyers and doctors work hard for their paychecks. Maybe they don't quite deserve ones as large as they receive, but they do work hard for their money. CEO's had to work hard to get to where they are, and deserve the money they've earned. For the MOST part. There are a few corrupt ones that, just like the athletes, actors, and musicians, give the rest a bad name.

I can understand the checks actors and musicians get, to an extent. They're selling a product that people are buying. Should it be those insane amounts? Not really.

 

[KJUN]

Ricky, we are asking for a specific part - an item - that you support. We know you support the IDEAL, but this isn't the ideal at all. We are even asking for a part you can point to - a single section and not a general "I like helping poor people" - that you support because you think that item WILL help. This isn't a difficult question to comprehend.

For example, I don't like that "Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of their income." (167). In other words, don't believe in Doctors for religious reasons, want to pay for your own care out of your pocket, or whatever - they are going to tax you as a penalty to force you to pay for health care of those who don't work. I don't like that. I don't believe it will help Americans or America. I believe in helping people - especially to help themselves - but I don't believe in that part.

Now, name one part specifically that you do support and believe will help Americans.

Yes Mr. Obama sold himself on a platform of change.

Didn't he also say he wouldn't do a national health care plan? Wasn't the words something like too drastic or too extreme? So, another lie, and people like Ricky still believe him when he says it will work and be GREAT and nobody will have to pay the piper and we can all eat rainbow stew!

I agree that athletes make sick money

The people to blame for athletes too much are Americans - Americans that pay the ticket prices and buy the items they endorse. If Americans really did think they made too much, they'd stop supporting them with the dollar. I'll never see a professional game in person because I DO believe they are paid too much....and I won't help them by paying into the system. Anyone paying those outrageous prices and buying items because they endorse them are the cause of them making too much - not the .gov, or them for accepting it, or products that hire them - it is the ticket buyer!

The talking head in the video argues that "we" i.e. working Americans are still footing the bill for the uninsured one way or the other, and that having a national health plan will save money on that because the uninsured will go to the doctors sooner rather than later and get help, thus reducing overall costs.

Bull puckey on that sentiment. More likely, they'll go for every little sniffle. Go to an ER anywhere in Texas and see the long lines. The line of people ahead of you while you are bleeding and in real pain (personal experience....lol) are made up in part of people wanting fricken' cold medicine because they know they HAVE to see you for free if you go to the ER no matter if you are sick or not. Give it to them free, and they'll use it for splinters and scream that it isn't enough. It is welfare mentality and it breeds welfare mentality. Look at people who get "food stamps." You've seen them in line. Anyone ever return some because they were able to eat a little cheaper that month? Haven't you stood in line getting store brand cereal to see the person in front of you getting expensive steaks and name brand cereals with the free WIC or food stamp program? (This is NOT everyone, and I don't mean to imply that it is...but it is a common occurrence nonetheless.)

Give it to them free so there is no reason to NOT use it, and it will be abused and over-used...as it is ALREADY. I will admit that I get mad enough to spit when I buy discount food and see the person in front of me buying better name brands using a system I pay for!

 

[wade]

I agree that athletes make sick money, and regulation is needed to even the disparity between average Americans. But this is an almost double edged sword, then we should look at lawyers, doctors, CEO's, lottery winners, singers, actors, etc... Sports is big business, their paychecks may not be equivalent to what they deserve, but the money the athletes make is earned one way or another. It makes me crazy too, they shouldn't get a fraction of those checks, but the owners make even more, and it's really the over consumption of alcohol, beauty products, car commercials, etc... that pays their salary.
I also think the generalization of Dog Fighters, drug users, and alcoholics is inaccurate. It probably isn't even a comparable figure compared to the rest of society, as it is mostly the mainstream alcohol consumption that gives them their millions. I have to agree with my brother and say that there are those who do give back, and it is a terrible disservice to those players that these stories aren't glorified instead. Sports media is just like any other, controversy will make papers fly off the rack quicker that a feel good story will.
Michael Vick committed a disgusting crime, but in all fairness he paid his
debt to society, lost all of his money (deservedly so), and really hasn't been glorified in the way most people think.

Athletes make a lot of money. So do doctors, CEO’s lawyers and lots of others. But if they didn’t “earn” that money, wouldn’t their industries go broke? I mean the money has to come from somewhere. If they are in fact earning enough money to pay for their own salaries and the income of the owners, how can you say their paychecks are not equivalent to what they deserve? Could you draw the crowds that Michael Jordan did? Would it be fair to say that as a basketball player he was worth more than you and I?

Could you run a major corporation as well as their current CEO? Could you make the decisions as well as they do? Do you have the knowledge, skill and background to replace them? Would it be fair to say they are worth more as a CEO than you?

Why does it always come do to “Hey he makes a lot of money, he should give some to me”. That is the bottom line isn’t it? How does it make sense that the people who are earning the money should give it to the people who are not?

Does it surprise anyone that the people who support this thinking are the ones without money and the opposition is the people with money.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Bull puckey on that sentiment. More likely, they'll go for every little sniffle. Go to an ER anywhere in Texas and see the long lines. The line of people ahead of you while you are bleeding and in real pain (personal experience....lol) are made up in part of people wanting fricken' cold medicine because they know they HAVE to see you for free if you go to the ER no matter if you are sick or not. Give it to them free, and they'll use it for splinters and scream that it isn't enough. It is welfare mentality and it breeds welfare mentality. Look at people who get "food stamps." You've seen them in line. Anyone ever return some because they were able to eat a little cheaper that month? Haven't you stood in line getting store brand cereal to see the person in front of you getting expensive steaks and name brand cereals with the free WIC or food stamp program? (This is NOT everyone, and I don't mean to imply that it is...but it is a common occurrence nonetheless.)

Give it to them free so there is no reason to NOT use it, and it will be abused and over-used...as it is ALREADY. I will admit that I get mad enough to spit when I buy discount food and see the person in front of me buying better name brands using a system I pay for!

If you hadn't put that there, I'd have to rip you one for generalizations on a personal note. LOL.
Tony and I are on food stamps, and we don't buy name brand crap. Most of the time because we can find the off brand stuff for cheaper, and get more of it for the same price. Why pay more to get less because of a name?

 

[Michael823]

The people to blame for athletes too much are Americans - Americans that pay the ticket prices and buy the items they endorse. If Americans really did think they made too much, they'd stop supporting them with the dollar. I'll never see a professional game in person because I DO believe they are paid too much....and I won't help them by paying into the system. Anyone paying those outrageous prices and buying items because they endorse them are the cause of them making too much - not the .gov, or them for accepting it, or products that hire them - it is the ticket buyer!

This is basically my opinion as well, it's not that they get paid out of thin air. Sure they get paid ungodly amounts of money, but they make even more that they receive with company endorsements, jersey sales, ticket sales, commercials, and other forms of marketing.

 

[KJUN]

...and that, Wade, is the problem with communism and why it fails in reality. Everyone might be CREATED equal, but where they go from there depends on them. We each are better at something than others, and a good painter DESERVES more for his work than a bad painter.

There is a line in a comedy song that says something like, "What are the homeless the only ones begging for change." Obviously, the meaning is a "play on words" referencing the idea that people who over-extended themselves and bought houses they couldn't afford under agreements they couldn't understand are the ones voting for a change. To me, it's just more people trying to divorce themselves from the consequences of their poor decisions.

 

[Michael823]

Athletes make a lot of money. So do doctors, CEO’s lawyers and lots of others. But if they didn’t “earn” that money, wouldn’t their industries go broke? I mean the money has to come from somewhere. If they are in fact earning enough money to pay for their own salaries and the income of the owners, how can you say their paychecks are not equivalent to what they deserve? Could you draw the crowds that Michael Jordan did? Would it be fair to say that as a basketball player he was worth more than you and I?

Could you run a major corporation as well as their current CEO? Could you make the decisions as well as they do? Do you have the knowledge, skill and background to replace them? Would it be fair to say they are worth more as a CEO than you?

Why does it always come do to “Hey he makes a lot of money, he should give some to me”. That is the bottom line isn’t it? How does it make sense that the people who are earning the money should give it to the people who are not?

Does it surprise anyone that the people who support this thinking are the ones without money and the opposition is the people with money.

This was my entire point, I was remarking on Robbie's post. Sure I personally think it's too much money, but they do earn it. Not sure if you got what I meant, but I basically agree with you 100%!

 

[KJUN]

If you hadn't put that there, I'd have to rip you one for generalizations on a personal note. LOL.
Tony and I are on food stamps, and we don't buy name brand crap. Most of the time because we can find the off brand stuff for cheaper, and get more of it for the same price. Why pay more to get less because of a name?

Hey, I know some use the privilege exactly as it was meant to be used, and I have zero problems with that...but, doesn't that STILL make you want to slap the people around you buying $8/lb steaks with it? I know it does me, so I imagine it does you, too.

...or the ones buying 2 cases of beer with cash and buying the rest of the food with food stamps. How can they have money to waste on beer?

 

[Hypancistrus]

I've learned not to depend on health-care anyway, and under the current system we have, if it weren't for private organizations I would be dead. I was told at 13 if I didn't have surgery I would die, yet even until the surgery date insurance wouldn't cover it. My family would have been in ruins financially if it weren't for private donors, and that is a serious flaw in the current system.

Which is how it needs to be. The American populous is the most generous in the world with regards to contributions to non-profits. Taking that BACK to the private sector will ensure that people do not "milk it for all it's worth," because the private sector is more demanding than the feds... they ask more questions and demand good answers.

I agree that athletes make sick money, and regulation is needed to even the disparity between average Americans.

So you are a supporter of communism then?

The people to blame for athletes too much are Americans - Americans that pay the ticket prices and buy the items they endorse. If Americans really did think they made too much, they'd stop supporting them with the dollar. I'll never see a professional game in person because I DO believe they are paid too much....and I won't help them by paying into the system. Anyone paying those outrageous prices and buying items because they endorse them are the cause of them making too much - not the .gov, or them for accepting it, or products that hire them - it is the ticket buyer!

Agreed. It's the free market system at work. :shrugs:

 

[Michael823]

So you are a supporter of communism then?

I don't think that's a fair observation of my post. Robbie put a similar thing and was never questioned to believe in communism, and my post was much more in depth than you are suggesting.
I think athletes make loads of money, it's hard to say they deserve it when others can't afford a pot to .... But I do think they earn it, simply because it is everyday people who pay their salaries by purchasing tickets, jerseys, even Budweiser.

 

[Buzzard]

That's why I abandoned the sidelines.

Let me in coach I can do it!!!!!:sidestep:

I have to agree with Wade on this one. What ever happened to fair taxing people. If I make 1.00 and the goverment(state,local,federal)takes 0.10 out of it and my brother makes $5.00 why would he expect to pay more than .50 in taxes.

I live in an area where I see the system go through extreme abuse. Where housing is given to people who are to lazy to get off there butts. Who get food stamps yet drive large newer SUV's with custom wheels. The abuse is wide spread. We need a leader to step up and say "No more free rides".

As a human being I have screwed up plenty of times. And yes people need a chance to get back on their feet. But I have listen to conversation while at dinner to people plotting to get unemployment. I have had people that quit on me because I would not pay them under the table so they could get unemployment. I think it is the actions of the lazy that has driven us to this point.

Has anyone noticed that once all this unemployment stimulus money hit the states that unemployment rose? I did, So I asked about it. Incase I had to lay anyone off. Did anyone else know that the qualifications for unemployment were lowered. The payout is $300 a week(grabbing caculator). The min. wage is 7.25 an hour thats $290.00 a week(they still have to pay taxes on this). Their are some people out there that have had to be on unemployment for the right reasons(plants shutting down ect..) and this is why we pay taxes. I know this but what ever happened to being honest.

I know I am ranting and I will leave you, to go back to the sidelines, with this note.
Once all this "cash for clunkers" money is gone... wont people stop buying cars again. So what did all this money go for besides,the banks(who helped get us in trouble in the first place)
Car industry will still be hurting in a few months....:sidestep:

Thanks Coach it is rough out there.......

 

[Hypancistrus]

Once all this "cash for clunkers" money is gone... wont people stop buying cars again. So what did all this money go for besides the bank.
Car industry will still be hurting in a few months....:sidestep:

Thanks Coach it rough out there.......

Another great point... stimulus money for companies that are failing for very clear and distinct reasons. Simply put, poor business sense...

Even if we bail them out, and give them enough taxpayer dollars to hold out another three months, at the end of those three months people still won't be buying Dodge vehicles because the most fuel efficient one is like 25 mpg... is it any shock that folks are fleeing to Honda and Toyota for small fuel efficient vehicles?

I don't think that's a fair observation of my post. Robbie put a similar thing and was never questioned to believe in communism, and my post was much more in depth than you are suggesting.
I think athletes make loads of money, it's hard to say they deserve it when others can't afford a pot to .... But I do think they earn it, simply because it is everyday people who pay their salaries by purchasing tickets, jerseys, even Budweiser.

My apologies if I missed a comment by Robbie stating the same thing. Yours jumped out at me, but admittedly I have been in and out all afternoon cutting my lawn and part of the neighbors as well (while they sat on their porch drinking beer, like they do every day). If Robbie said the same thing, then I'd ask the same question, which you kind of side stepped....

 

[Ricky87]

Yes Mr. Obama sold himself on a platform of change. Sometimes when things are tough the grass looks greener anywhere but here. But change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing. Tell me how you are going to change things and I’ll think about it. Maybe you have a good idea, maybe not.

I don't think he sold himself, more than he felt the need for change, and thought he could be that change. I think he is a reflection of that change in many ways beyond his physical features. As for whether or not change is needed for the sake of change; not necessarily, but we shouldn't be afraid of change either!. Especially when redundancy is ripping this nation apart (change). If I had my say I would make having a healthy nation my number one priority, and war my last resort. I would fix the prison systems, and have more programs based on education, and the belief of furthering oneself. I would put an emphasis on teenage pregnancies and pregnancy prevention, and have stronger laws against violence, especially sexual violence. I would make recycling mandatory, and I wouldn't let capitalism destroy the good of society. Seeing as how I have little effect on any of those things, I do what I can do, which is vote. I don't think my idea's are ludicrous, and I do believe Barack Obama is the most likely person to work from within these areas. I trust him and support the decisions he makes, and I'll vote mid-term, and when his first term is up. If he doesn't make progress like he promised and there's a better candidate out there, I'll vote for him/her!. Right now, I have no reason to doubt he will be successful!.

 

[KJUN]

I would make recycling mandatory, and I wouldn't let capitalism destroy the good of society.

On the first point, who's going to PAY for it since recycling is often more expensive than not recycling. It sounds like you have no respect for personal rights.

On the second point, capitalism IS what made this society great. Period....and I'm glad you just came right out and admitted you were either a socialist or a communist...or is it a Marxist? It doesn't matter, you are a traitor to the constitution of these united states with either of those attitudes.

 

[Ricky87]

On the first point, who's going to PAY for it since recycling is often more expensive than not recycling. It sounds like you have no respect for personal rights.

On the second point, capitalism IS what made this society great. Period....and I'm glad you just came right out and admitted you were either a socialist or a communist...or is it a Marxist? It doesn't matter, you are a traitor to the constitution of these united states with either of those attitudes.

I said, and I quote; "I wouldn't let capitalism destroy the good of society". Pleasant outburst, though!.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Hey, I know some use the privilege exactly as it was meant to be used, and I have zero problems with that...but, doesn't that STILL make you want to slap the people around you buying $8/lb steaks with it? I know it does me, so I imagine it does you, too.

...or the ones buying 2 cases of beer with cash and buying the rest of the food with food stamps. How can they have money to waste on beer?

DEFINITELY agreed. I know when I used to work as a cashier at a supermarket, you'd get the mom's coming in with 6 WIC checks, and then getting 2-3 cases of beer and a carton or two of cigarettes with cash. They were also the ones with the designer handbags and sunglasses.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I don't think that's a fair observation of my post. Robbie put a similar thing and was never questioned to believe in communism, and my post was much more in depth than you are suggesting.
I think athletes make loads of money, it's hard to say they deserve it when others can't afford a pot to .... But I do think they earn it, simply because it is everyday people who pay their salaries by purchasing tickets, jerseys, even Budweiser.

Well, actually, I had suggested putting a cap on their salaries and donating the money from their endorsements and whatnot to deserving charities. Not necessarily government programs, but programs like Big Brothers and Big Sisters, education, and the D.A.R.E. program. All of those programs are to the benefit of the younger generation to help educate and keep them off the streets and away from drugs and crime. :shrugs:

 

[Nova_C]

Currently, the US spends more of it's GDP on public health care (16%) than any other UN member, with one exception.

East Timor (WTF?)

The US was ranked as 37th overall in health care performance and 72nd by overall health. The US spends more, and gets less, than nations with UHC programs. Americans also pay more for prescriptions from American drug companies than do people from other nations, buying from those very same companies. According to a recent study, 60% of all bankruptcy declarations in the US were from medical related costs.

So the US spends more than any one else, has mediocre at best health care performance, and people are regularly bankrupted by the costs related to being injured or falling ill. Clearly the system isn't working as is and yet there is mass criticism for the cheaper, better alternatives implemented in other countries. What makes US health care so much better?

Also, Cornsnake124, you called the Health Care system in Canada a disaster. How do you figure?

 

[wade]

I don't think he sold himself, more than he felt the need for change, and thought he could be that change. I think he is a reflection of that change in many ways beyond his physical features. As for whether or not change is needed for the sake of change; not necessarily, but we shouldn't be afraid of change either!. Especially when redundancy is ripping this nation apart (change). If I had my say I would make having a healthy nation my number one priority, and war my last resort. I would fix the prison systems, and have more programs based on education, and the belief of furthering oneself. I would put an emphasis on teenage pregnancies and pregnancy prevention, and have stronger laws against violence, especially sexual violence. I would make recycling mandatory, and I wouldn't let capitalism destroy the good of society. Seeing as how I have little effect on any of those things, I do what I can do, which is vote. I don't think my idea's are ludicrous, and I do believe Barack Obama is the most likely person to work from within these areas. I trust him and support the decisions he makes, and I'll vote mid-term, and when his first term is up. If he doesn't make progress like he promised and there's a better candidate out there, I'll vote for him/her!. Right now, I have no reason to doubt he will be successful!.

Change, that was the very campaign that put him where he is today. People were fed up with the way things were and voted to change them, I don’t care, I just want it different.

Ricky you sound like Bill Clinton. “I would make healthy nation my #1 priority and end all war. I would fix the prison systems, and more education, I will end teenage pregnancies and prevent pregnancy and stronger laws……..

Wouldn’t it be wonderful? And there would be lollypops for all the children and the birds would sing and it would never be too cold or too hot but just right.

Of course that is what everyone wants. Don’t tell me what everyone wants, tell me how you are going to achieve it. How will you put a turkey on every table in America?