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-   -   How are GOLDENS "any" different than Caramels? (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146064)

ecreipeoj 07-03-2018 07:15 PM

How are GOLDENS "any" different than Caramels?
 
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I recently offered my Golden collection for sale to pay a tax debt. I ended up selling have of my breeders and held onto the Golden's.

I received several emails asking the question, "How are Golden's any different than Caramels?

This is a fair question, because at first glance they look very similar.

How are Cinders "any" different than Anerys? How are Lavas any different than Hypos?

They are a different gene. They are similar, BUT they look different.

I bred Goldens to Caramels and produced NORMALS. Goldens are the newest Corn Snake gene to be discovered. Goldens are as different from Caramels as Cinders are from Anerys, and Lavas are from Hypos. They are a different gene.

Caramels are perfectly named, they look exactly like caramel candy. They are a brownish/yellow color. Golden's on the other hand are Golden Yellow on a greenish back ground color.

Caramels are brownish. Golden's are greenish. Most Caramels are "Border-less", a gene picked up from Rat Snakes. Golden's have borders and produce Normal offspring the same as the wild caught from the Locality. Borderless Normals produced from Caramels Do NOT exist in the wild.

Caramels are from a Corn Snake that was purchased from a pet store. Golden's were produced from a wild caught snake. Golden's are a locality corn snake just like Hunt Club Okeetees are.

Caramels are from the Corn Snake Gene Pool, and have another unique gene combined with it to produce very Yellow Snakes. I call it Yellow Jacket. Some people call it Yellow Factor. There are several genes in the Corn Snake Gene pool that cause extreme YELLOW.

All Pewters are Yellow Jackets. All Lavenders are Yellow Jackets. Yellow Jacket is the cause of the Phenotype of Pewter, Yellow Jacket is the cause of the Phenotype of Lavender.

We have all seen Dark Pewters and Dark Lavenders without Yellow Jacket. These are the true color of Charcoal Bloodreds and Lavender without the Yellow Jacket gene influence.

Golden's are very different than Caramels from the General Corn Snake Gene Pool. Golden's are perfectly named. They are a Golden Yellow color on a greenish background color. Caramels are brown without the Yellow Jacket gene present.

Golden's are a new Corn Snake gene from a wild caught snake. Golden's can be combined with all previously discovered genes to create NEW Corn Snake Combines.

scmartin27 07-11-2018 01:37 PM

Love the post, Joe. Thanks! I'm happy to have 2.3 phs from the project. Hope to continue it along with you and WindSerpents.
There's a section in my book about them, also. Hope people read it and realize there IS a difference!
It's like Toffee/Buf - they are very "caramel-ish" too... but no one doubts them because they are dominant instead of recessive.
Regardless - Glad the project lives on, hope it starts to flourish soon!

Dragonling 07-11-2018 07:46 PM

I was considering asking if you had sold that group. Glad you wound up hanging onto them. The fertile male was suffering a respiratory illness for some time, but he seems to have recovered spontaneously and has been VERY interested in the females currently below him in the rack, so we are hopeful he will be ready to pair up next season with the now very large female phets.

Really pleased with the animals I got from you by the way. I'm holding off on breeding the Topaz cuz she's a little small but the other 3 appear gravid. :ok_01:

ecreipeoj 07-18-2018 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonling (Post 1733872)
I was considering asking if you had sold that group. Glad you wound up hanging onto them. The fertile male was suffering a respiratory illness for some time, but he seems to have recovered spontaneously and has been VERY interested in the females currently below him in the rack, so we are hopeful he will be ready to pair up next season with the now very large female phets.

Really pleased with the animals I got from you by the way. I'm holding off on breeding the Topaz cuz she's a little small but the other 3 appear gravid. :ok_01:

Somebody needs to repeat my test breeding between Carmel and Golden.

My Golden male has bred several female. Hope he nocked them up!

Dragonling 07-20-2018 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecreipeoj (Post 1733970)
Somebody needs to repeat my test breeding between Carmel and Golden.

My Golden male has bred several female. Hope he nocked them up!

I can probably make that happen next season. I never did keep many Caramels around.

Send me some hets!

ecreipeoj 08-09-2018 09:47 PM

Goldens breeding
 
4 Attachment(s)
Here are a few of photos of my Golden male breeding his Het Golden Mother and Golden sister.

The last photo is of the Golden female in natural light.

Fertile eggs are incubating, from Golden x Het Golden, Golden x (2) 66% ph Golden and Golden x Golden, so it looks very positive that I will produce some more Goldens this year!

I also bred my Golden male to my Wild Line of Lavas, so I will have the ingredients for some Landrace Golden Lavas in the future.

Next year, I will be able to breed Golden X Landrace Sunkissed. I feel very privileged to soon be able to have three Landrace lines traced back to wild caughts to work with, Landrace Lavas, Landrace Sunkissed and Landrace Goldens.

Rich Z 08-10-2018 12:22 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ecreipeoj (Post 1733678)
Caramels are brownish. Golden's are greenish. Most Caramels are "Border-less", a gene picked up from Rat Snakes.

"Rat Snakes"?? What are those? Other than "Red Rat Snakes", of course.

And I beg to differ, but most of the Caramels I produced and kept long enough to tell, had prominent black borders to the blotches. Matter of fact, I wasn't able to REDUCE those borders till I started breeding Hypo into the line, as well as Motley, and Blood Red. I actually had to work to reduce those black borders in subsequent generations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecreipeoj (Post 1733678)
Golden's have borders and produce Normal offspring the same as the wild caught from the Locality. Borderless Normals produced from Caramels Do NOT exist in the wild.

How do you know that? You have extensively canvassed the locality where the original animal carrying the Caramel gene came from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecreipeoj (Post 1733678)
Caramels are from a Corn Snake that was purchased from a pet store. Golden's were produced from a wild caught snake. Golden's are a locality corn snake just like Hunt Club Okeetees are.

Yes, a LOCALITY wild caught animal brought into a pet shop. Cape Coral, to be exact.

I'm surprised I still have these pics laying around from 2007.

ecreipeoj 10-12-2018 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Z (Post 1734302)
"Rat Snakes"?? What are those? Other than "Red Rat Snakes", of course.

And I beg to differ, but most of the Caramels I produced and kept long enough to tell, had prominent black borders to the blotches. Matter of fact, I wasn't able to REDUCE those borders till I started breeding Hypo into the line, as well as Motley, and Blood Red. I actually had to work to reduce those black borders in subsequent generations.



How do you know that? You have extensively canvassed the locality where the original animal carrying the Caramel gene came from?



Yes, a LOCALITY wild caught animal brought into a pet shop. Cape Coral, to be exact.

I'm surprised I still have these pics laying around from 2007.

Red Rat, Rat Snakes, is there a difference?

If you breed a Palmetto Yellow Rat Snake x Red Rat Snake, "Corn Snake", and produce Yellow Jacket Het Palmettos that are always "Tan", does it matter?

Is the Hypo gene found in Rat Snakes the same as the Hypo gene in Corn Snakes that is infected with the "Borderless" gene? Perhaps.



The Borderless gene is dominant and not easy to breed out of a line, but it can be. Het Borderless x same, will produce 1 in 4, that is not Borderless.

Where did Borderless come from? Most likely Rat Snakes, other than Red Rat Snakes.

Caramel Corns may live in the wild, if they were released from Captive Breeding Programs, but no wild Caramels have been caught to date, that I know of.

Goldens are a new gene, with Locality data, if it matters to you. Hunt Club Okeetees are Locality Corns, if it matters to you.

It will be interesting to see the different Golden Combines that match the Caramel History. Amel Goldens, Hypo Goldens, Lava Goldens, Bloodred Goldens, Striped Golden Sunkissed, the Sky is the limit with the New Golden Gene.

MINGA 11-13-2018 11:11 AM

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First of all very interesting thread!

I have some pics from some of my snakes were you maybe see the difference.

My Caramelblood and his daugther (Toffee het. Caramel) developed a glossy metallic shine after around 2 years. I think this makes it also very difficult to seperate Caramels from Golden...

The last pic is my Amberblood who is not related to the others. He does not develop this metallic glossy shine but i think this has something to do with Hypo.

Around 7 years ago i had a Caramel female with thik Borders but all three of them are borderless. So i think Border or Borderless is not a good reference point to differentiate Goldens from Caramels.

Most of the Caramels here in Germany have borders. Just a few are Borderless.

Rich Z 11-13-2018 01:53 PM

Just to clarify a detail concerning the history of the Caramel gene.

The original animal that produce the Caramel gene for me was a wild caught NORMAL looking adult female purchased from a pet shop in Cape Coral, Florida. The reason I purchased this animal out of all the rest there was because of it's unusual straw colored background color. I discussed the source of the animals with the owner who verified that those were all wild caught animals brought in from local collectors. Matter of fact, a friend of mine, Tim Hoen, was with me at the time we visited that pet shop. What was interesting was that we both looked into that tank with the corn snakes, and both said "Wow! Look at that one!" at the same time, but reached in and grabbed two different animals that caught our eyes. His did not catch my eye, and mine did not catch his eye. People just see different things in animals, I guess. I was looking for corns to use in breeding projects based on their color combined with, at that time, the ONLY color altering genes available for the corn snake: Amelanism and Anerythrism. I don't believe that Bill and Kathy Love had come up with Hypomelanism yet at that time.

Anyway, the inferred theory posted in this thread that the animal could have been from a captive breeding program sort of falls apart when the fact is realized that there was never another animal offered or known of similar in appearance to the Caramel gene prior to my producing the original Caramels and Butters.

Could the pet shop owner have been lying to me about the source of that animal? Certainly! Quite frankly, unless you catch an animal yourself out in the wild, you are always going to be at the mercy of the honesty of the person selling you an animal as to it's actual and truthful source. And had other Caramel looking animals shown up in the market around the same time, I would have to say that this would be pretty clear evidence of the possibility of a parallel breeding project being done by another breeder working with this uncovered gene. But since that did not happen, to the best of my knowledge, I feel pretty safe in saying that I believe that pet shop owner's story. If there is evidence otherwise, I am all ears....

So, I had bred that wild caught female carrier with a snow corn in the hopes that from an area nearby known for wild caught Anerythristics, perhaps anerythrism was lurking in her gene pool. And I also wanted to see what that straw colored background would do when combined with Amelanism. All normals hatched out, which at the time seemed unfortunate, but I kept several anyway and when I bred THEM together, that is when I hatched out what I eventually named the "Caramel Corns" and the "Butter Corns".

Of course, I did testing with that Caramel gene to Anerythrism to make certain that it just was not an odd variation of Anerythrism. The Caramel corns were only slightly different looking than Anerythristic at hatching, so it actually took a few sheds before I realized they could possibly be something different. As for the Butter Corns, well, I just though that the yellowish looking ones were a result of the straw colored background that existed in the original female that produced this line. Honestly, I came VERY close to selling off the entire batch of them before I realized that I had something very different.


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