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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available. |
What is the deal with Cinder?!
08-08-2022, 09:12 PM
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#11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caryl
I don't have any first hand knowledge on the Cinder issue so maybe I shouldn't offer input, just lurk, lol. But I've been working with Caramels for a long time now. There are definitely different Caramel looks, and I think Keys influence is a big part of it. Before I had to take a few steps back from breeding much for a while, I was working on selecting for what I thought of as silver and gold Caramels, with the silver background color and more golden saddles. That was before the term Miami Caramel was coined, which is a fine enough term but way overused. Most Caramel babies have grey background, after all.
Anyway, looping back (I had a point, I think lol), whether it's easily pointed out to someone else or not, whether it's caused by an associated allele or what, het Caramels are so often said to be identifiable, and to a practiced eye they are. But - devil's advocate here - it may be that although those with whatever "noticeable" traits are correctly IDed as het Caramel, there may be others who are het Caramel without said differences. That is, I think, the logic for Yellow Jacket, Yellow Disease, etc. Might something similar be going on with Cinder? Thoughts?
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As for the highlighted portion above, the Caramel line did not come from Keys stock. At least not as far as I can imagine. The originator female was a wild caught animal that I purchased from a Mom and Pop pet shop in Cape Coral, Florida, which is on the western outskirts of Ft. Myers. So the presumption is that it was a locally caught animal from somewhere nearby.
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08-09-2022, 09:23 AM
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#12
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Rich, Did the original Caramel look more like the Silver and Yellow ("Miami Caramel") morph, or did it look more like the brown and orange variety (not sure if there is a name for that line/morph)?
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08-09-2022, 09:47 AM
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#13
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Hi Caryl, I don't have much direct experience with Yellowjacket, just the 3 individuals that will hopefully be mature enough to reproduce next Spring. I can say definitively that they look nothing like the Het Caramels I've seen (much brighter to my eye, and practically borderless). I'll post a photo below (apologies for photo quality; I really need to spend a day photographing all of my snakes . As for the history of Yellowjacket, what I know is only what Sarah Mohr wrote in her book (and possibly a video; can't remember), which I'm assuming you guys have read as well. I don't have that book here with me at the moment but my memory is that Joe Pierce said that "Yellow Disease" was affecting the coloration of progeny from many pairings, including some that did not involve Caramel (someone please correct me if that is in error . I think the working hypothesis was that Yellowjacket might be dominant, and that is why it has been suggested that it might be the same thing as Buf. That would certainly be interesting to test, if it has not been done. ...and then there is Toffee...
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08-09-2022, 11:38 AM
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#14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeSmithS
Rich, Did the original Caramel look more like the Silver and Yellow ("Miami Caramel") morph, or did it look more like the brown and orange variety (not sure if there is a name for that line/morph)?
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Quote:
Back in May of 1985, my wife and I were vacationing in southwest Florida and happened upon a pet shop in Cape Coral. They had an aquarium with about a dozen or so wild caught corn snakes in it and one in particular caught my eye. It was a female and the coloration was a rather unusual straw colored ground color with reddish-brown blotches. I just thought it might make a rather interesting looking amelanistic so I purchased it to take home.
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SOURCE: https://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=145921
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08-30-2022, 10:38 AM
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#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnoctopus
Honestly, I think if het Palmetto can be considered incomplete dominant (where some of the hets are very hard to distinguish from non hets, especially if another homozygous morph is involved), then cinder should be considered incomplete dominant too. I have a much easier time spotting het cinders than I do het palmettos! (But that could be my lack of experience with palmettos).
With caramel, I don't think it's incomplete dominant, but I do think most caramels have a dominant, or incomplete dominant, 'yellow factor' that can often be seen in het caramels.
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This is my answer to all of the above as well. I've definitely seen many het palms who do not look like anything special. While many (maybe 75%) do look a bit more "hypo-ish", it is not always obvious. Same with Cinder. I've been able to pick out het cinders, again about 75% of the time.
I also agree with the Caramel comment. I've been hatching caramels and het caramels every single year for the entirety of my time in the hobby... it is not obvious who is het caramel even 50% of the time. Sometimes I get the "yellow jacket" looking snakes, that end up NOT being het caramel, and i end up ruining a full year of a caramel project because I was relying on that.
I've also worked with Yellow Jacked since about 2016 - that IS dominant in my opinion, or maybe also incomplete-dominant. I still don't know if it's the same as/different from Buf/Toffee, but my line came straight from Joe Pierce who has confirmed the ones I have came out of his "yellow disease" line (that has since been renamed yellow jacked).
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08-30-2022, 10:42 AM
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#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scmartin27
This is my answer to all of the above as well. I've definitely seen many het palms who do not look like anything special. While many (maybe 75%) do look a bit more "hypo-ish", it is not always obvious. Same with Cinder. I've been able to pick out het cinders, again about 75% of the time.
I also agree with the Caramel comment. I've been hatching caramels and het caramels every single year for the entirety of my time in the hobby... it is not obvious who is het caramel even 50% of the time. Sometimes I get the "yellow jacket" looking snakes, that end up NOT being het caramel, and i end up ruining a full year of a caramel project because I was relying on that.
I've also worked with Yellow Jacked since about 2016 - that IS dominant in my opinion, or maybe also incomplete-dominant. I still don't know if it's the same as/different from Buf/Toffee, but my line came straight from Joe Pierce who has confirmed the ones I have came out of his "yellow disease" line (that has since been renamed yellow jacked).
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PS sorry for typos. I havent had coffee yet XD I mean yellow jackeT lol
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08-30-2022, 08:47 PM
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#17
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Sarah, when it comes to Caramel, if it's yellow jacket that's creating a "het caramel" look (whether they're actually het or not), do you also notice a difference between the homozygous caramels - ones with yellow jacket and ones without?
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09-04-2022, 04:51 PM
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#18
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Is Cinder a form of anerythryism?
by definition, the lack of red being what defines any form of an anery to be an anery. Not to be confused of course with Anery with a capital A, which we also know as "Anery A".
And by definition of anery, caramel lacks red, so caramel is a form of anery.
Ignoring all of the gene combinations of cinder, aka wrenches in the gears or hets to throw off breeding trials, I've always had a fondness for the cinder line, some folks long ago called it "Anery Z".
And then there's that funny odd thing where the first cinders back around 2003 had red in the centers of the saddle borders, so is straight original cinder a form of anery?
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09-04-2022, 05:00 PM
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#19
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So back in the day when some bred cinder X orange candy cane amels, and the f2's revealed 'peppermint', where was the pink coming from? the amel line contained orange and white, not red and white=pink, hence the wildcard of cinder.
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09-05-2022, 10:19 AM
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#20
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I don't think cinder is a type of anery because it definitely has red tones, even with no other genes added. But it may be a type of hypo-erythrism, reduced red tones.
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