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Husbandry and Basic Care General stuff about keeping and maintaining cornsnakes in captivity.

Corns living together?? Yes or no?
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:47 PM   #71
HaisseM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgeek
NOWHERE did I assert that you were "holding strong".

You're taking this waaaaaay too personally. The person I'm directing my original point of "weigh the risks, and if it doesn't work out for you, don't come running to us" is, was, and ever shall be a generic "anyone".

That applies equally as well to my "don't try to evangelize anyone who has come to their own informed decision" point.

Finally, I find it to be a logical fallacy to imply that, since you do something differently than I do, you're the one who is "open to new ideas".

regards,
jazz




regards,
jazz

you're response was sent to me, so I assumed you were talking to me, but ok

In regards to the statement about being open to new ideas. simply put, my views on cohabing has changed from when I first started reading post here no... While I don't feel it is as serious as some have made it, I will tell you if I sell or give away the babies I will without a doubt tell people cohabing may or may not be the best idea
 
Old 09-24-2007, 05:51 PM   #72
jazzgeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
you're response was sent to me, so I assumed you were talking to me, but ok
BZZZT. Thanks for playing, here's a home version of our game.

I quoted your post. I responded to the open forum/thread. If I'd have intended it for you alone, I'd have PM'd you.

Quote:
In regards to the statement about being open to new ideas. simply put, my views on cohabing has changed from when I first started reading post here no... While I don't feel it is as serious as some have made it, I will tell you if I sell or give away the babies I will without a doubt tell people cohabing may or may not be the best idea
Which, in my opinion, is akin to telling them that today is either Wednesday or it's not. It's tautological.

I'll continue to advise them to come to their own conclusions after assessing the risks.

regards,
jazz
 
Old 09-24-2007, 05:56 PM   #73
HaisseM
Quote:
Originally Posted by susang
You know Messiah, you are trying my patience no where did anyone say 99.9% in fact the number I used was 71% from a poll done on this forum. If we were all closed minded as you say, there would be no new morphs. I don't co-hab because I lost a snake doing it, so I have experience in it. If I can recommend to someone the pitfalls and save them from loosing a snake I will. If you want to tell them to try go ahead.
You are playing a game of symantics here many of us have tried with nothing good coming out of, I guess we have no common sense. Some under good conditions do and are successful. What we say here is "bad idea and this is why," I suppose we could tell about the people for whom it works and say you decide, but then there would someone tellings us how wrong we are and how negative we are.
That 99.9% has nothing to do with the ratio of people who think cohabing is wrong vs those who think its right. It has to do with the people who stand firm behind not cohabing under no circumstances. (There are some who say its ok if done for a limited amount of time for breeding/etc, but i was trying to avoid that aspect of the confersation) In regards to your 71% if I was playing stupid games, then I would have noted that the previous person who you were speaking to, says he got his information from a multitude of sources/forums not just this board which you did.
 
Old 09-24-2007, 05:56 PM   #74
zwyatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
No my argument is over time, we've taken away the animals natural instinct to be a solitary creature since hatchling upon hatchling has been taken out of nature and introduced to people held (around others) more than it would have in the wild
Are you even reading my responses? I know what you are saying and I am saying that breeding snakes in captivity and contact with HUMAN PEOPLE is not the same as breeding the solitary nature out of them. And, NO, breeding for more docile snakes, which I have already argued is not necessarily the case with most breeders, does NOT make them more tolerable of cohabitation. A snake that is perfectly docile around a person might be completely intolerable of sharing its living quarters with another creature 24/7 and, as a result show hostility towards it. We are talking about being solitary with respect to SNAKES not HUMAN PEOPLE.

If you toss a bunch of cornsnakes into a viv and over time take out the ones that show aggression towards one another and only keep and breed the ones that "get along" and keep doing this generation after generation, THEN you would be selectively breeding for cohabitation tolerant snakes. However, there is nothing remotely like this currently happening that I am aware of...but from the sounds of it, you've got a leg-up on that experiment



Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
Umm, if aggression is also part of the enviroment, then now that we've taken an animal from its home and moved it into a cage and is feed on a normal basis woudln't you imaging those aggressive behaviors are less likely to be seen?
No. You've completely misunderstood what I meant. I'll have to think about how to explain this more clearly.
 
Old 09-24-2007, 05:58 PM   #75
HaisseM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgeek
BZZZT. Thanks for playing, here's a home version of our game.

I quoted your post. I responded to the open forum/thread. If I'd have intended it for you alone, I'd have PM'd you.
my bad, i thought it was directed at me - oh well

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgeek

Which, in my opinion, is akin to telling them that today is either Wednesday or it's not. It's tautological.

I'll continue to advise them to come to their own conclusions after assessing the risks.

regards,
jazz
HUH?
 
Old 09-24-2007, 06:02 PM   #76
Roy Munson
I should also point out that many would say that you have an ethical obligation to give the same quality care to your $40 pair of anerys as your $2000 pair of cinders. I have to say that I would agree with these people. My cheap pet store normal gets the same care as my cinders.

I guess what I don't understand about this question is that it is no more difficult to house them separately than to keep them together. Even space limitations aren't really an issue. Two corns kept together require the same floor-space as two corns kept apart. I've done it both ways, so I know. In fact, I think it was tougher keeping them together because I really had to give them a lot of time to get out of hunting-mode before I re-introduced them after feeding, when each snake still smelled like their prey.
 
Old 09-24-2007, 06:02 PM   #77
HaisseM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwyatt
Are you even reading my responses? I know what you are saying and I am saying that breeding snakes in captivity and contact with HUMAN PEOPLE is not the same as breeding the solitary nature out of them. And, NO, breeding for more docile snakes, which I have already argued is not necessarily the case with most breeders, does NOT make them more tolerable of cohabitation. A snake that is perfectly docile around a person might be completely intolerable of sharing its living quarters with another creature 24/7 and, as a result show hostility towards it. We are talking about being solitary with respect to SNAKES not HUMAN PEOPLE.
yea i'm reading them, matter of fact I read them twice when i quote but I see your point, my part to that is once you start handling them you override some of those aggressive behaviors, while you're right its not the same as two snakes living together, but over time those two ideas mesh together. A person handling a snake gears the snake towards not being alone, unless you are saying even when the snake is handled it is still alone ( i would disagree with that, since company is company *to an extent*)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwyatt
If you toss a bunch of cornsnakes into a viv and over time take out the ones that show aggression towards one another and only keep and breed the ones that "get along" and keep doing this generation after generation, THEN you would be selectively breeding for cohabitation tolerant snakes. However, there is nothing remotely like this currently happening that I am aware of...but from the sounds of it, you've got a leg-up on that experiment
Selective breeding doesn't have to be the strigent to happen
 
Old 09-24-2007, 06:03 PM   #78
zwyatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
maybe it has come up because there is no 100% answer
No, I don't think that's it. I think it's that people don't search. If you search and read the numerous debates about cohabitation I can't imagine what is unclear about the two opposite sides of the story. I think people get it in their mind that they want to cohabitate and so they start a thread trying to find justification and support, but what they find is not what they were hoping for.
 
Old 09-24-2007, 06:03 PM   #79
jazzgeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
I will without a doubt tell people cohabing may or may not be the best idea
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgeek
Which, in my opinion, is akin to telling them that today is either Wednesday or it's not. It's tautological.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
HUH?
What's not to understand?

regards,
jazz
 
Old 09-24-2007, 06:09 PM   #80
zwyatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaisseM
Selective breeding doesn't have to be the strigent to happen
By definition, selective breeding (in this case on one trait - cohab tolerance) cannot occur unless selection is occuring. In this case, you are either selecting for cohab tolerant snakes or you aren't.



Darn, I've got to go to class for a while. Don't have too much fun without me!
 

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