Do the ENJOY it?

I've been getting mixed messages reference snakes and how much they "enjoy" being handled.

It is a matter of snakes enjoying being handled, or that some "tolerate" it more than others?

You hear stories of people bonding with their new snake days within getting it, but is this just something we tell ourselves to feel better about taking our snakes out of their comfortable hives for our own enjoyment?

...Just some food for thought.

T

Originally Posted by Gorak

I've been getting mixed messages reference snakes and how much they "enjoy" being handled.

It is a matter of snakes enjoying being handled, or that some "tolerate" it more than others?

You hear stories of people bonding with their new snake days within getting it, but is this just something we tell ourselves to feel better about taking our snakes out of their comfortable hives for our own enjoyment?

...Just some food for thought.

T

Most tolerate it, others have low tolerance. The ones that appear to enjoy it are probably "enjoying" some aspect of the experience other than the handling itself (e.g. novel stimuli, novel escape possibilities). Corn snakes do not bond with other animals. I mean, bond how? Emotionally?

My whole stance on handling snakes has been one of tolerance for the snakes in general.

I find it funny how a lot of people will contradict themselves in making an argument in one thread against cohabitation due to the snake being a solitary creature and being stressed, but then they'll go on in another thread how they handle their snakes on a frequent basis.

Somehow, I just don't make the connection that snakes feel less stress being handled by a human than being around it's own kind. Sure, some snakes have a better means to physically show stress and this is a great indicator of it's mental/physiological condition, however, we will never know the true answers as snakes have no real means to communicate their feelings to us. And anybody that tries to argue the point otherwise is just making moot arguments for their own sake than for the sake of the snake.

But I agree, it's not about the snakes enjoyment, it's about our enjoyment as keepers. There is no "bonding", the correct word is "conditioning". Bonding refers to more to an emotional relationship connection. I highly doubt snakes (or most other reptiles) have this capacity when compared to more intellectual developed mammals. Conditioning is more of a relaxed reaction subjected to by living in a frequently occuring habitual environment.

You don't see many people taking out their aquatic pets (fish for sake of argument) and giving them a ride around in a ziploc bag to see the world or reaching in and constantly touching them to show their affection. This would cause most fish undue stress and eventually death.Why should snakes be considered any more of a handle-able pet, because they are land based? Sure, a snake in general is a lot hardier and able to accept handling due to conditioning than the argument of a fish, but this doesn't make it necessarily acceptable on those principles alone. I think I'd need a better argument

And FYI, I'm not pointing any fingers, I just like having constructive arguments for the sake of intellectual stimulus. So, there's no need for anybody to take my "points" personally

Originally Posted by DeadMouse

I find it funny how a lot of people will contradict themselves in making an argument in one thread against cohabitation due to the snake being a solitary creature and being stressed, but then they'll go on in another thread how they handle their snakes on a frequent basis.

There's no contradiction, but there is a flaw in your observation. Cohabitation offers zero benefit to the snake (only to the keeper), while handling provides at least one significant benefit to the snake: exercise. Most corn snakes are fairly tolerant of handling, so the benefits of exercise probably outweigh the drawbacks of possible stress. My snakes hardly get handled at all, and I consider that to be a bad thing. Almost all of them tolerate handling well, and they could benefit from the exercise.

This mirrors my thoughts exactly. When I chose my snake, my decision was based on a combination of the snakes looks, the fact he was the biggest of his clutch, and largely due to the fact that he was active, yet "timid" in my hands (others appeared like they were trying to get away).

I see many people refer to their snakes as if they were dogs/cats, some even as their own children.

While I don't have a problem with this, it's not unlike buying an uncomfortable, yet expensive, sweater for a dog and thinking you are the best owner who takes good care of his/her pet.

I am attached to my snake, as I am "attached" to my computer, and home gym. I just think that if more people understood the difference, that they could take better care of their snakes keeping in mind what is important.

T

I think of my snake the same way I think about a person that doesn't like me very much. They tolerate my existence but would never go out of their way to be around me and will go out of their way to get away from me. This is of course with my assumption that people that don't like me are on par intellectually with my snake.


---Kenny

Bear in mind Roy that I am merely playing the devils advocate when posing my arguments. I will often contradict myself in order to play the antagonist in which to pose such debatable questions. That doesn't mean that in real life I will say one thing and do the opposite.

I'm just trying to help others to understand that some of the "advice" given here, especially in regards to handling, is conjecture and that there are other methods or reasons in wanting to get a snake. Personally, I've been quite dismayed with the amount of people buying neonates and the first thing they want to do is handle them to death before even letting the snake become adjusted to it's environment or get on a regular feeding schedule. Then they wonder why they have feeding issues, strike position posturing and other issues with their new pet.

Originally Posted by Roy Munson

There's no contradiction, but there is a flaw in your observation.

Actually, there is no flaw in my statements, merely a failure on your part to understand the point I was trying to make which is neither cohabitation nor handling is without some sort of potential stress to keeping snakes. Sure, some species more than others, can become conditioned quite well to frequent handling. This is one of the many reasons why I started keeping corn snakes 15 years ago. I was aware (from copious amounts of reading and q&a sessions with knowledgable sellers) even at that time without resources such as the internet that there were snakes that did not respond well to handling or were just too aggressive to even calm down over a period of time. I readily admit that when I originally got my first corn, I was one of those people that handled it a lot, probably far more than I should have. But I never found it to be incidental to that particular snake's health and he responded very well to being handled. This of course has not been true of every corn I have kept though.

Cohabitation offers zero benefit to the snake (only to the keeper),

I would agree to this to a point, but it doesn't mean that it cannot be done successfully. This of course depends a lot on the species of snakes, it's environment, and the husbandry skills of the keeper, as well as the individuality of the snakes too. And I quote:
Keeping And Breeding Corn Snakes by Michael J. McEachern - ISBN 1-882770-16-1: Page 16 -
"Corn snakes may be housed separately or in small groups. Housing a number of corn snakes together is not normally a problem."

The General Care And Maintenance Of Milk Snakes by Robert Applegate - ISBN 1-882770-19-6: Page 21 -
"When they gain some size and "learn" how and when to eat, they can be kept together, except during the actual feeding and for a short time after."

Kingsnakes and Milk snakes by Ronald G. Markel - ISBN 0-86622-664-8 Page 12 -
"Because all kingsnakes are both ophiophagous (basically, feeding on almost any snake) and generalized carnivores, they are one of the easiest types of snakes to maintain in captivity. ... One drawback of this is that they are also highly cannibalistic and can not be housed more than one snake per cage."

while handling provides at least one significant benefit to the snake: exercise.

While I would also agree to this comment to a point, this is not the only means in which a snake in captivity can or does get exercise.

If a snake is housed in too small of an environment where it cannot move about too freely, then sure, it is going to lack in the ability to obtain a fair amount of exercise. However, if a snake has a reasonably sized enclosure for it's size, and it has objects on which to crawl around on (ie branches, hides or other assorted things to crawl around on other than just substrate), then it has a means to gain some significant amount of exercise.

I would also like to point out that constriction of prey is also a good means of gaining exercise. While I do not wish to engage in the discussion of feeding frozen/thawed over live, I do believe that snakes will exert more effort in the constriction of live prey over that of frozen/thawed. Keep in mind that I do not under no circumstance advocate tossing in a live rodent in the cage with a snake. That will invariably result in harm to the snake at some point. Personally, I "stun" or pre-kill live mice and dangle them in front of my snakes so that a striking response is obtained followed by constriction. This can also be obtained by frozen/thawed mice, but I think the response will be less once the snake no longer feels the need to exert itself more than is needed to eat said item.

Most corn snakes are fairly tolerant of handling, so the benefits of exercise probably outweigh the drawbacks of possible stress.

I totallly agree with the statment that most corn snakes are in fact tolerant to handling, sub-adults/adults more so than neonates/yearlings. I do not however feel that this is a completely valid argument in terms of giving a snake exercise if it's husbandry conditions are met to provide that.

My snakes hardly get handled at all, and I consider that to be a bad thing. Almost all of them tolerate handling well, and they could benefit from the exercise.

My snakes also get infrequent handling and I wouldn't say that the environments I keep them in are necessarily well endowed to provide them with enough items to have them crawl around on to gain an ample amount of exercise. However, they do have reasonably sized enclosures for their size, they have large log-shaped hides to crawl around on, and they consistently constrict their "stunned" prey when being fed. So, in regards to my snakes, I think that while there can be some improvements to their environment for means of exercise, I do not think that handling is the only option for them to get exercise.

Originally Posted by DeadMouse

Bear in mind Roy that I am merely playing the devils advocate when posing my arguments...

Good points. I'll bet that our views line up pretty closely on these topics. If you read some of my past posts on cohabbing, you'll see that we're in agreement that it CAN be done successfully by an experienced keeper under controlled circumstances. And I agree completely with your opinions concerning over-handling of hatchlings.

I'm very familiar with McEachern's book. I bought it new when it was published in '91. I still reference it occasionally. But I lost his Color Guide.

I'm sure that Corns learn to tolerate being handled. If I just open the doors of their vivs and wait outside, most of my Corns will eventually come out to investigate of their own accord, so by coming towards me and out of their environment, I'm sure that they at least feel safe around me.

But I don't think that "enjoy" really applies to anything that a Corn does. They don't have that capability - as far as I can tell, everything they do is by instinct, to satisfy five basic survival needs:

1) Safety from predators
2) The right temperature
3) Food supply
4) Access to water
5) A mate (breeding season only)

From the way they behave around me, they don't view me as dangerous, so I'm OK by Rule 1. Maybe by offering a warm spot, I might meet the requirement of Rule 2 for a while. They may even associate my smell with the appearance of food (Rule 3). As they don't drink that often, I don't think Rule 4 applies to me and I hope to heaven that Rule 5 doesn't either!

Certainly when I've had cause to leave one of them at the vets, the vet has observed that they're a lot more relaxed with me than they are with other people. Last year, Pumpkin bit three people when I took him in for x-rays, and he's never so much as looked at me funny.

I'm sure that this has more to do with my personal smell being associated with safety and the possible appearance of dinner, than any kind of personal attachment to me or enjoyment of being picked up. I've always accepted that I'm attached to them in a much greater way than they are to me.


P.S. I still have both the McEacherns. When I started out in 1991, they were the only written material I could find about keeping Corns and were my bible for years. The Colour Guide looks like a real museum piece when you compare it to Chuck Pritzel's 2008 Morph Guide!