Are you kidding me!?!?!?!

I think you're right, supply is out weighing demand and will continue to do so, perhaps even more than it already does. That sucks big time for people whose entire livelyhood is based on producing corns. I sincerely hope they make it through because some of the most fantastic morphs and bloodlines, and some of my favorite snakes in my own collection have come from people like that. But there are less than a handful of those people.

So the market is crashing, you know what? For the rest of us I have to say- so what? I know that may piss people off, especially those who rely on their corn breeding operation for much needed extra income. But, I mean it- so what? If you're keeping three dozen breeding animals with a primary intention of producing and selling babies, well, maybe its time to reconsider whether that's such a smart business venture and perhaps cut back. Big deal. There are plenty of other ways to invest your time and energy that will give you better returns. And honestly, if keeping and breeding corns for one's own fun projects isn't exciting enough in itself, then why bother?

[quote=TripleT;1224582]...these animals are being mass produced or over produced as more and more breeders pop up every year breeding more & more morphs - willing or not.
Again, were talking morphs that hold a certain value here right ?
[quote]

I just wanted to add, that yes all morphs hold a certain value. But need they hold a monetary value? Should we always think of a rare triple homozygous animal in terms of dollars? I should hope not. If I produce what I'm hoping to produce next year, which there is a 3/64 chance that I will, there is no way in hell that I'm selling it. It will be priceless.

I see all these ball python dicussions and forums and people seem to be investing in these animals like they were pieces of art, like spectators hoping their purchase will acrue in value and produce even more thousand dollar products.

Snakes are not products, and if one doesn't care about them beyond their monetary value then one needs to get into stocks and bonds.

Supply >>> demand = low prices

Love it or hate it, the free market works.

The difference between corn snakes and a lot of the other snakes you mention is ease of breeding. Any *insert word here* can put 2 snakes together, get a bunch of eggs, put those eggs somewhere warm and in a couple months WHAM-O! 10x new snakes for the market out of just 1 pair.

Originally Posted by martin-bernstein

I just wanted to add, that yes all morphs hold a certain value. But need they hold a monetary value? Should we always think of a rare triple homozygous animal in terms of dollars? I should hope not. If I produce what I'm hoping to produce next year, which there is a 3/64 chance that I will, there is no way in hell that I'm selling it. It will be priceless.

I completely agree with your idea. My husband and I are breeding our snakes because we enjoy it. We have our own hopes like yours with the rare chance of getting the certain morph we want but in the mean time love finding wonderful homes for new snakes! Its great to make someones day with a new pet. We DEFINATELY don't do it for the money because what we make probably covers our own expenses. But its so fun to get updates about past baby snakes and to see how happy they are making someone else who started out just like we did.

Originally Posted by TripleT

Yep, it's neat, exciting and interesting I agree there, but I think a lot of people are ignoring the fact that these animals are being mass produced or over produced as more and more breeders pop up every year breeding more & more morphs - willing or not.
Again, were talking morphs that hold a certain value here right ?
Well prices are gonna crash on these things believe it or not as more & more are mass produced every year.
To simplify, 2 words: Supply / Demand.

Last time I checked, "morphs that hold a certain value" are not really over-produced. Charcoal Stripe, for example, as already mentioned in this thread, are not so easy to find for sale...nevermind the fact that the price has not been compromised.

I can agree that there are many single- and some double-trait corns out there, but how much do you really think you are going to get for them? If your focus is on the monetary aspect of breeding corns, you have to realize that triple and quad trait corns do not happen overnight, especially when dealing with hets, possible hets, or starting off with single-trait corns. You gotta work for a few years to reach some results that may help you reach your monetary goal.

I personally look forward to producing some of the triple- and quad-trait morphs because they are some of my favorites and/or they have not been produced yet (?). As stated before, this is coming more from the hobbyist side of things.

Jeff,

My comment to the other fella was my way of saying "your full of" well you know...theres NO WAY VMS has charcoal stripes for $100.00 In my opinion, the breeders who work endless hours,sacrifice their time,their love lives?,etc...deserve/reserve the right to charge what they want for their "Product" as without the effort of people like you,sean niland,Rich Z.,Kathy Love & Bill (the list goes on), the world would be without such wonderful morphs. As for the whole "Undercutting" of it all....it's a dog eat dog world out there...charge what you want...people will buy it if they have the funds...case in point..ferrari...I doubt i could get a ferrari for the price i paid for my f-150 truck. and i certainly dont see the ferrari makers losing sleep over not selling ME one of their cars. so, in closing, i say Mohr power to the Breeders of the world!(you did catch the play on words....right?) undercut if you have to...i dont think their are any rules or laws in business..that says you HAVE to sell you product at the same PRICE that everyone else does..I guess it all comes down to whether you love the business you are in enough to do what it takes to survive.

as far as the phantom Stripes,or Sunkissed phantoms..etc....i was thinking maybe an Ultramel-Charcoal stripe or Motley....thoughts??? or has that been done? hmmm.....

Originally Posted by rich333

as far as the phantom Stripes,or Sunkissed phantoms..etc....i was thinking maybe an Ultramel-Charcoal stripe or Motley....thoughts??? or has that been done? hmmm.....

It hasn't been done by me and won't be done here. I have one ultra-based animal left in my collection and it is for my educational programs. I bailed on the ultra stuff a few years back due to having to cut some numbers down AND the fact it is a codom with amel type gene. Anytime you get codom stuff and can get that critter the FIRST breeding instead of waiting for it down the road....you'll see price drops. The ease of quickly producing such a morph will make them common. It happened in the ball python world. It happened with ultra stuff and it is currently happening with tessera.

Now...combine ultra with NON-amel stuff like you suggested and you are barking up a different tree. Those go back to the simple recessive laws and I think you'll see them retain their value due to the inability to quickly mass produce them.

Over here it seems better this year then last year. In 2009 I produced about 70 hatchlings, this year about 85. I have about the same amount left now as I had in December last year I think (after next weekend's pick up by a customer I'll have 17 hatchlings left). I think my relative succes comes from taking efforts to present my snakes at fairs a little better then the average hobbyist with just a bunch of cricket boxes on his unlit and cold table. Of course it costed me some money but I think the 'investments' (probably no more then about 250 bucks spread over 2-3 years) I did were outweighed by selling more hatchlings the years after. So, my table looks like it has more expensive snakes for sale, but the most expensive I sold costed the buyer 35 euro's (nice lavender '10 male). I guess when they look at my table prices are surprisingly low, not relativeley but absolute. Many people tell me how neat my table looks with the baby's in two rows of spider vivs on colorful aquarium 'bedding'. I guess if they see I'm willing to take efforts in presenting low to medium end snakes the best I can, they assume the quality of my snakes might be better then my neighbour's, and they are willing to pay the extra 5 bucks I might charge. So, to cut the story short: nowadays one might need to take extra efforts to sell for the same or slighty higher price then your competitor. This includes after sales: I have a customer who bought 4 baby's from me at two different fairs and at my home within about 2 months, but it sure took me some time chit chatting. This weekend a new customer is going to pick up 4 hatchlings at my place through an ad, she lives about 300 km away but somehow thinks it's worht the drive. I guess it's because i have mailed her about 5 times with very complete answers on her questions ans genetics and care (she is a newbie). Commodities need a little extra to be sold.

I think the problem is people knowingly breeding females that lay clutches of 15 and up and not just one at a time but many. I will never do more than 2 clutches in one year. I breed for me, not the money, but if selling some of my hatchlings allows me to buy a morph I can not produce I feel happy. I raise my own feeders so that doesn't cost me much. I had a rough year this year. One clutch, 11 eggs, lost 1 early, lost 1 to a storm near hatching, ended up with 9 normals het amel mot or stripe. Sold one for $20, traded 4 for 2 nice sized tanks with lids, 2 died as nonfeeders, 1 got loose and was squished. Left me with one for future plans. Thank goodness I am almost positive he is a male lol.