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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available. |
What is, and what is not a Zigzag?
03-06-2022, 01:05 PM
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#1
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What is, and what is not a Zigzag?
Over the last year or so I have noticed a proliferation of corns for sale that are labeled as "ZigZag", or sometimes "Aztec", that do not to me personally, appear to fit that description (see attached photo). While I realize that this "morph" is line-bred, or perhaps polygenic, and thus it is not as straight-forward as being able to say a particular snake possesses, or does not posses a recessive mutation (e.g., amelanism), I was wondering if people on this forum have opinions about what should be called a ZigZag, and what should not. Specifically, I'm curious if we as a community can come to a consensus about how much aberrant pattern an individual must possess to warrant being labeled as "ZigZag" or "Aztec". It seems as if some snakes are being sold as Zigzag if they have ANY amount of aberrant pattern (i.e., even a single set of connected dorsal blotches). The names of the sellers have not been included in the photos as my intention here is not to "call-out" or challenge any particular seller or breeder. I just wanted to provide some examples of what we are discussing. Personally, I'm in favor of not referring to any corn with less than approximately 50% aberrant pattern a ZigZag or perhaps calling them "partial ZigZag". I realize there is absolutely no way to "enforce" whatever consensus we may arrive at, but because individuals that have nearly completely aberrant patterns command higher prices, it seems like some categories might make sense. I look forward to hearing what folks on this forum have to say on this topic.
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03-06-2022, 01:19 PM
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#2
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... another thought, just to clarify: Personally, and for the sake of conversation here, I consider Zigzag, Aztec, and Widestripe to all be the same thing, or at least related somehow. I have several individual corns that display areas that fall in 2 or even all 3 of those categories. That is, a single snake with classic ZigZag/Zipper sections, and more chaotic "Aztec" sections, and broad "Widestripe" type sections. If folks would like to have a separate conversation about the differences between these "morphs", that could be fun as well
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03-06-2022, 03:10 PM
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#3
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I think some people misunderstand what it should be, and/or some think they can pull a fast one on those who don't know any better.
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03-06-2022, 03:53 PM
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#4
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Hi Heather, I think you are correct in both of those cases. I've even seen a couple of examples where someone stated that their snakes were "Het Aztec", which of course can't be correct based on what we know currently. I suppose I just don't like to see people misled, even if it is unintentional. Perhaps if we can get enough people to weigh-in here, then this conversation could serve as a reference to refer people to when we see a mislabeled snake. The photos on Ian's Vivarium ( https://iansvivarium.com/morphs/?m=z...3ba6f444c81015) show some good examples as well.
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03-06-2022, 04:01 PM
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#5
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If you see mislabeled ads on morph market, definitely hit the flag button and let the staff know! I agree that I would only consider something as a zigzag or Aztec if it has at least 50% of its pattern zigzaggy. Any other lower amount I simply call it whatever morph it is with a bit of aberrant patterning. I think just like calling every normal an okeetee, calling any corn with a slight amount of connected saddles or aberrant pattern a zigzag (or Aztec or widestripe) is sometimes intentional to boost sales and sometimes simply ignorant.
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03-06-2022, 04:59 PM
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#6
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I've noticed some of those very same ads, Neil, as well as the same type of error in others. If anything less than 2/3 of the animal is patterned, I don't personally refer to it as Zig-Zag or Aztec. Nor, come to that, wide-stripe, although that's not actually something I've come across much. I'm fine with the term partial Zig-Zag and have used it in the case of a female I once had who was about half patterned. Since very few snakes have entirely regular, symmetrical saddles, I don't think irregularities of <10% of the body should even be mentioned. More than that but not half the body I refer to as aberrant patterning. Of course, those parameters are just mine, not anything official. Which is part of the issue, I guess. Clear as mud? Lol
Sent from my LM-X210CM using Tapatalk
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03-06-2022, 05:09 PM
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#7
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Here is a little writeup I did about the "Aztecs" a while back.
https://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=145917
Personally, before I would have put such a label on one I produced, it would have to have a substantial portion of the dorsal pattern containing this aberrant pattern. At minimum, at least half or so of the body. Just one or two fused dorsal blotches would have qualified, in my opinion.
Actually I dropped using that term after a while as it became too cumbersome (does anyone else wonder about the people who live in Cumberland ) when combining "Aztec" as a descriptor along with all the genetic lines involved. And after a few years of trial breedings, I just gave up trying to enhance that look, or at least produce predictable results. So that just became a "bonus goody" to anyone who specifically wanted such a pattern. But I guess others feel differently about that now.
Honestly, none of the examples in the photos above would have qualified to wear the label of "Aztec" had I produced them and offered them for sale.
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03-06-2022, 05:45 PM
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#8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
...
Actually I dropped using that term after a while as it became too cumbersome (does anyone else wonder about the people who live in Cumberland )
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They're used to hard going in land what's cumbered with rocks big and little, except when they're drifting easy down the Cumberland River, all unencumbered- like. At least that's what my Kentucky friends and kin tell me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
...Honestly, none of the examples in the photos above would have qualified to wear the label of "Aztec" had I produced them and offered them for sale.
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Yep. I gotta say, I look at ads like those and ask that perennial question, "Are they clueless or are they crooked?"
Sent from my LM-X210CM using Tapatalk
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03-07-2022, 09:18 AM
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#9
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As I was reading the first post I was thinking 50% would be my cut off before I even got to that part. I've used the term aberrant a few times.
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03-07-2022, 09:48 AM
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#10
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Thanks to everyone who has shared their opinions thus far. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who felt those ads were in error. It seems that everyone agrees that a corn should have at least 50% aberrant pattern to be labeled "ZigZag/Aztec/Widestripe", which is refreshing, because trying to arrive at a consensus on ANYTHING these days seems nearly impossible Personally, I try not to buy ZigZags unless they have at least ~75% aberrant pattern (unless they happen to have some other fun genetics .
Thanks to Rich for pointing out his previous post, which seems to support the idea that perhaps "ZigZag/Aztec/Widestripe" are in fact, all various levels of expression of this "morph?, mutation?, polygene complex?... IDK.
As for flagging mislabeled animals on MorphMarket, Fauna Classifieds, or on this site for that matter, I hope some of you will do so when you see examples that need to be corrected. Once I contacted a seller on MM to very politely point out that the animals that were labeled as ZigZag were in fact, not ZigZags. The seller politely thanked me but did not change the ad, and the animals were sold for far more than they were worth (IMO)
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