Contributing...

Well let's look at some facts here.

(1) Editing capabilities: Contributors are getting something that I had decided to remove completely from everyone. After having people change their stories and sometimes editing out ENTIRE posts, I decided it was in everyone's best interests if I just remove that capability completely. But after some reflection, I felt it would be a nice perk for those people who did contribute, and the hope that those people would not engage in the petty hacking of text some folks did earlier here. As for editing in general, heck I PAID a programmer to install that spell checker here. That money came out of MY pocket. Remember the chat system I PAID to link in here? That cost me money as well. There are quite a few things that go on in the background that I have to pay for in order to get this site the way it is, and to keep it running as smoothly as possible.

(2) Posting For Sale ads here: I think I stated my reasons elsewhere about this. But in a nutshell, I just got tired of seeing people looking at my price list and then undercutting my prices on this website which I own and run. So in effect, they are competing against me on my own nickel. After seeing countless examples of this, my decision came down to either removing the FOR SALE section completely, or making it a perk of the Contributors. So in effect, contributors are paying $25 per year to advertise on this website. If the people who come here SOLELY to advertise their animals for sale think that the price is too high for them, then so be it. They can simply go elsewhere to advertise their animals.

(3) As for expenses in general, check into the prices for a dedicated high end server with managed admin services and see what you come up with. Sorry, I don't buy "cheap", I try to buy what's "best".

(4) This may be the most important one. SerpenCo is not going to be around forever. Next month I will be 55 years old and am feeling it. Last Winter I had a nerve problem in my neck/shoulder/arm that still lingers, and I can see the writing on the wall. I am not immortal. I am not superman. Sooner then I would hope, I will just not be able to continue the physical necessities of doing what I want to do with my corn snakes. So what do I do then? Quite frankly, when SerpenCo goes, so does this site because I will not have the ability to keep on paying the bills to keep it running. Not only "no reason" but no money for it either. Going to a fixed retirement income will put an end to having the money to pay for this sort of stuff.

So what are the alternatives? The one I am looking at is making this so that this site not only pays for itself, but maybe even slightly profitable so that I don't have to eat dog food because I don't have enough retirement money to be able to afford hamburger.

So there you go. The cards are on the table. If someone doesn't like this alternative, then put yourself in my shoes and think about what YOU might do with the same circumstances.

Originally Posted by Menhir

Good points so far. I did not contribute cause I also do not need the extra subforum, nor do I sell snakes. But I'll never contribute sites or forums that can balance their cost with commercial banners or their own "presentation" and so get it back through their business.

Rich is not making anyone contribute and I think you are over reacting. You don't need a sub forum, you don't sell snakes, so why are you complaining you can't get them for free? I think we have been spoiled. What you call "reduced functionality" is actually a service (referring specifically to the classifieds) that we should feel lucky we had for free for so long. You come off as posting classifieds here should be your god given right just for visiting this board?

If you take a good look through the classifieds, you will find that many people post there, and never post any where else in these forums. The come here to advertise animals very similar to what Rich is offering, at a reduced price and never contribute anything at all to this site. He is just trying to find a way to curb abuses. The same with the edit feature, he didn't take it away just so contributors could have a special privilege. Plain and simple, trolls were coming in and abusing the system and showed that having the "edit" feature wasn't working well. He figured contributing members are less likely to abuse this feature and left us alone. FYI, if you are worried about favoritism, when Rich found out about the spell check feature, he considered enabling it only to Contributors. I'm sure it's pretty hard to abuse a spell checker, but he changed his mind and gave it to everyone. You make it look like his sole purpose for "reducing functionality" is to get people to contribute. What he is really doing is taking away things that were being abused.

Look at the alternative, you can't edit there either, there is no chance in hell your post would have the time of day with any of the moderators there, and classifieds are $100 a year and honestly I don't even get a quarter as many responses to my ads over there as I do here. Even when I do get responses, it is from complete flakes.

Simply put, Rich is not going to run to the bank with all the money he "makes" from the classifieds. He puts untold hours in to this site and sure it gives him advertising, but I think the hours put in to actual advertising he gets is WAY out of balance. If he put the same kind of hours into a "paying" job, he could have enough money to buy all the advertising space in Reptiles magazine.

To be able to post a classified in an area with such a high traffic of excellent customer base is a valuable thing. It is a valuable thing that was being abused. I think $25 a year to have access to it and to help out the site in a very small way is absolutely nothing to complain about.

So there you go. The cards are on the table. If someone doesn't like this alternative, then put yourself in my shoes and think about what YOU might do with the same circumstances.

Given the circumstances i would probabley do the same if i were 30 years older, and for me anyway, if it was a choice between paying $25 a year to keep this place going or losing it, i know i would pay because it is the best place on the internet for corn snake infomation, care and breeding developments.

Like i said earlier though i can't afford it now, but as and when i can i will contribute (probabley next year or the year after).

Originally Posted by carol

Rich is not making anyone contribute and I think you are over reacting.

Thats not what I wrote - or did I? Please tell me where?!?
I wrote that it got more and more that I read in many threads of new members and in signatures that we HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE to give THE SITE SOMETHING BACK. Sorry, if my knowledge is not enough...
Thats a fact that makes me feel that I'm pushed into a situation that everyone with this little coin gives and that I'm exploiting. To be honest - not a good feeling so far. I ask myself - did anyone copying our photos, reading our textes and using my calculator feel that he had to give me something back? I never had the feeling people should give me something back...

If you take a good look through the classifieds, you will find that many people post there, and never post any where else in these forums. [...]The same with the edit feature, he didn't take it away just so contributors could have a special privilege. Plain and simple, trolls were coming in and abusing the system and showed that having the "edit" feature wasn't working well. He figured contributing members are less likely to abuse this feature and left us alone.

Sorry, that are facts on every board on this planet. I'm active on many boards, smaller ones and bigger ones and none of them tried to solve that problems by letting the "good" people pay and giving the rest less "rights".

If he put the same kind of hours into a "paying" job, he could have enough money to buy all the advertising space in Reptiles magazine.

Sorry again, but I think thats not a good argument at all. Let's take the whole Freeware Software thing. Many programmers investigate half of their lives to produce software that everyone can use for free. Take all the Linux stuff as an example or the browser "Firefox" that I'm using while typing this - everything for free. You will find "Donation" buttons on their sites cause these people do have the same costs for webspace and downloads just like Rich - but in the end, none of them uses the freeware programs as a commercial platform. I tried to make that difference clear in my previous postings.

So, what you are arguing is that Rich does it for money and not the idealistic background in running a platform for people that are enthusiastic for the same hobby that he is? After I read the whole KS thing, I thought that having these board was exactly such an idealistic thing without dealing with money as a reason to [bleep] someones name and all that stuff. The more I'm wondering for what I have to pay - wrong word, contribute - today.

I just can speak for myself, but it is still great fun for me to invest many time in running/designing/working on "the best" German cornsnake site and giving that content to the people for free. BTW. I also have to pay my bills and so far, not much snakes have been sold because of the calculator and some money would also be really cool for a student.
I'm way too idealistic for this world I think.

Carol, the points you made about money, time, trolls and so on are definitely not wrong. I myself just come to a different solution for that than selling contributor coins - so please don't take that as an offense.

@Rich
When I see your arguments it is clear that both "sides" of the coin have their arguments and money is one. But on the other hand - we could calculate what you'd normally had to pay for advertising SerpenCo in an equivalent board. Are you quite sure, that it would be much less, not regarding the "god mode" you got here? My dad had his own business for a long time and I think I'm not a newbie when it comes to costs for advertising and getting a good "name" as a business.
The costs you have with the server and so on - it's bad that you have to pay for all that stuff. I'm thinking of myself that can administrate and program the whole server myself. But, have you ever tried to find someone in this community that would do that for you, e.g. also for free?
I bet there are quite a few dumb people like me out there, investing their time just because they like their hobby and keep the board online.

I still feel that the coin divides into a 2 class membership and still, I'm a blue collar I think. The internet and all that boards were build on people giving us freeware and communities working together to keep their platform alive and healthy. Thats why it still scares me that paying members have a different class than others not regarding their knowledge or commitment (money excluded) to the community.

Greetings

Originally Posted by Menhir

I still feel that the coin divides into a 2 class membership and still, I'm a blue collar I think. The internet and all that boards were build on people giving us freeware and communities working together to keep their platform alive and healthy. Thats why it still scares me that paying members have a different class than others not regarding their knowledge or commitment (money excluded) to the community.

Greetings

I have to say that I'm really feeling that too, especially from one member in particular who seem to be relishing the fact that he gets extra privileges and is rolling in it as if he's done something he should be really proud of.

As I stated earlier, I clicked the link to 'pay my way' on this site and was unpleasantly surprised to see that there was only one 'unit' of payment and I couldn't just donate $10 to the site because I really enjoy it and want to give a bit.

I think people who use their 'coin' as some kind of power or status need a good wallop on the head IMHO!

Rich, what say you give people the 'extra perks' for contributing but make it a silent system, so that you contribute anonymously because you want to support the site, not because you want to wield your 'status' as I have witnessed.

Actually, there is a link at the right side of the screen that will let you donate any amount you want.

OK this must be a new feature since I looked for a way to give to the site.

Hmm, that button has been there for quite some time...at least as long or longer than the contributor icons to my recollection.

Originally Posted by princess

I have to say that I'm really feeling that too, especially from one member in particular who seem to be relishing the fact that he gets extra privileges and is rolling in it as if he's done something he should be really proud of.

Said individual also has very little actual experience with the animals but a burning desire to be accepted. It seems that this argument comes down to the actions of a lone member.

I can only speak for myself but I didn't pony up funds for the ability to edit a post or post a sale add. Simply put, I like posting pics of my animals and adventures. Instead of taking advantage of Rich's server space, I thought the considerate thing to do was pay for a SERVICE that I was USING. I even paid a second sum to have my own forum. Again, I'm paying Rich for a service. I could careless if Rich disabled the icon; that's not why I donated. Also, the functions you mentioned weren't even a perk when I donated. Oh yeah, I've only posted ONE sales add in the more than two years I've been a member here and didn't even get a serious offer.

What I don't understand is why two members that admittedly won't benefit either way are complaining about a function that they admittedly will never use. Again, only speaking for myself, I don't see the validity in your "complaints". Capitalism is alive and well IMO.

Originally Posted by CAV

Simply put, I like posting pics of my animals and adventures. Instead of taking advantage of Rich's server space, I thought the considerate thing to do was pay for a SERVICE that I was USING. I even paid a second sum to have my own forum. Again, I'm paying Rich for a service.

Excactly what I stated that it's ok to pay for that. You use the boards Webspace to upload pics, I used my own. You have your own subforum, I don't have. It's quite understandable that you should/can/want to pay for that. That wasn't the point I tried to criticize.

What I don't understand is why two members that admittedly won't benefit either way are complaining about a function that they admittedly will never use.

That's nice and easy but ignores the difference between letting people pay for a service or hiding the will to benefit from the board behind a "help the board to stay alive" message. Rich stated that he'd like the board to be slightly profitable and if he likes to do so, that's quite ok for me - I like it that he is honest enough to make that clear.
What I dislike is that fact, that since the whole thing started it got more and more into threads with newbies and signatures with the intention "we have to help this board because we have to give something back". And excactly the feeling that is transported by this statement is different to what you describe as paying for service and what Rich describes as "being slightly profitable".
Don't you think?

And with that feeling already in my head - and be sure, I may be one of the only ones talking about it here, but my mail account tells me that more people feel so - I'm kind of dissappointed that next to NOT having the coin and therefore exploiting RichZ, I'm starting to have less rights and functionality than the "coin" people have.

That could be a good way to start a fight - coin people against non-coin people I switch my Nick to Che Coinvara - anyone willing to climb through the bushy jungle with me?

Back to topic, wouldn't it be a better idea to describe the "contributor" thing as an extra SERVICE that people can buy. This service could include an own subforum and the ability to sell animals. Rich also runs the FaunaClassifieds and so it wouldn't be against human logic that he can't give everyone the possibility to sell his animals here for free - I see that point and that would be fully ok to me. That way, we could stop that "do I have to pay to be a good user, no matter how much knowledge I donate" way of thinking.

...my 0.02$

P.S.: What would the community do if tomorrow all genetic geeks include a donation button saying "pay us our time or we don't answer genetic questions completely anymore, you just get slightly reduced answers"?