Corns living together?? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by Corny Noob

Aren't you also on RR.com?
I believe so...hasn't this dead horse been beatten up enough already?

By no means am I being funny, but if someone wants to ask the same question on different forums what does it matter?? Different people use different forums and by asking questions on more than one they are increasing their area of research. Personally I have never heard of RR.com, so I obviously wouldnt respond to a question on it, but here I may. I dont think its fair that some people on here are happy to post their opinion on multiple sites, but then slate people for asking the same questions on them?

All credit to Lena for using more than 1 site to broaden her response. I think its a good thing and well done. Shame alot of other people dont spend as much time doing research on their pets.

Poor Lena.... I asked something similar last week, about housing 2 breeding snakes together, who were both adults (so not going to have a female too young getting gravid) and got alot of negative comments suggesting that I couldn't be a good corn snake owner if I was even thinking about it...

Why would people ask advise and opinions if they are just going to get insulted about it? Go easy on question makers...even if its about something you don't agree on... alot of people I know would cohab without even researching at all.

Not mimicking natural prey items to absolute perfection is not even in the same ballpark as potentially putting their health and/or survival at risk, which is what cohabitation can do.

Originally Posted by zwyatt

On what basis? Even with the proper care and regular handling some corns never grow out of their aggressiveness. And as far as I have heard, nobody in the hobby is selectively breeding for cohabitation tolerant cornsnakes. There are even plenty of examples outside the cornsnake world where "tame", supposedly well-adjusted, animals just snap and attack their owners. The point being that there's no reason that two corns that seem to get along can't end up the same way with each other.

I would think two corn snakes could live together on the basis that i've been doing it with no problems.. also you talk about selective breeding.. I'm talking about regular owners (You know what I mean) Side note, i don't feed my cornsnakes in their main cage and never had, i wonder if that has anything to do with it also....

Originally Posted by zwyatt

How do you know that stress from cohabitation wasn't the cause of the regurge in the first place? Not being able to tell which one regurged, is not what most people have in mind when they say that regurges are a reason to not cohab...it's that the added stress of cohabitation could be the cause of regurges.

Well since I've had them for over 3 years if not more (can't remember to be honest) and i've only had 2 regurges (one was when I didn't know not to play with them after they ate (I had to throw out that shirt)

Originally Posted by zwyatt

No. This would be assuming that one animal can only eat another purely out of hunger. Corns are opportunistic feeders by nature meaning they don't just wait until they get hungry to feed. I think being caged 24/7 with another animal counts as opportunity.

If they are well feed i can't see that actually happening and many people have stated cannabilism is a rare

Originally Posted by zwyatt

Again, breeding corns as pets is not the same as breeding for cohabitation tolerant pets. The arguement that corns have been bred for pets would be, at best, marginally relevant if and only if the most docile cornsnakes were allowed to breed. I think most people would argue that the foremost criteria for selecting which corns are bred is coloration, pattern, etc. with temperment being one of the last criteria.

Over time any animal would become tame (we've seen it with many wild animal) So the aggression towards one another can't be as high as you claim

Originally Posted by Susan

Zach covered just about everything but I would like to comment on this particular thought.

If someone insisted on housing 2 snakes together, I would much prefer to see them house snakes of the same sex over a pair of the opposite sex. The OP would eventually like to breed which clearly indicates they are a male and a female. Housing them together now will definitely make sure they will breed, and probably much too soon to be healthy and safe for the female. I really don't want to see yet another thread on "OH MY! My 1 1/2 year old, 150 gram female is gravid! What do I do?"

And about same sex aggression during mating season...I've rarely seen it happen even when I put 2 males in the breeding tub with a ready and willing female.

I just addressed his point but I will cover one point I am unclear on. While I understand the early breeding part and how it can be unhealthy for the snakes (makes complete sense) I've been under the impression cohabing two of the same sex is where the aggresion comes from? but you're saying thats not the care?

Originally Posted by beaniebopps

Poor Lena.... I asked something similar last week, about housing 2 breeding snakes together, who were both adults (so not going to have a female too young getting gravid) and got alot of negative comments suggesting that I couldn't be a good corn snake owner if I was even thinking about it...

Why would people ask advise and opinions if they are just going to get insulted about it? Go easy on question makers...even if its about something you don't agree on... alot of people I know would cohab without even researching at all.

I agree beaniebopps. Many people on this website have a ton of expertise and knowledge to share. However, they come across as very negative when answering some questions or when talking about an opinion that is different than theirs.

Many people use websites, such as cornsnakes.com, to educate themselves. When the "experts" decide to answer questions, they should do so in a positive manner. It is a choice to answer or not answer. We want people to feel comfortable to ask any question they have and not to feel like they are going to be berated for asking certain questions or for asking the same question on multiple forums. It is better to know new snake keepers are learning things from different sources than simply guessing about what is safe or correct.

Please keep this in mind the next time you decide to answer a question.

Originally Posted by CornNoobie

By no means am I being funny, but if someone wants to ask the same question on different forums what does it matter?? Different people use different forums and by asking questions on more than one they are increasing their area of research. Personally I have never heard of RR.com, so I obviously wouldnt respond to a question on it, but here I may. I dont think its fair that some people on here are happy to post their opinion on multiple sites, but then slate people for asking the same questions on them?

All credit to Lena for using more than 1 site to broaden her response. I think its a good thing and well done. Shame alot of other people dont spend as much time doing research on their pets.

Only because this topic has been beaten do death, both there and here.
And we're saying the same things the other board did

I ahve chosen to NOT weigh in on any of these threads as there are serious opinions here that cause much tension. In general everything that I have read, here, on other boards in other forums and even from kathy herself (as posted here in one of the other threads) as well as from breeders (several different as several different shows in CLE and COL) there is a split nearly down the middle. I read somewhere that kathy herself mad a mention that it is not horrible to house same sex together.
Personally I Do house my 2 females together now. I did not at start but after they were comfortable with us and we noticed that they ALWAYS gravitated to each other and curled up together when they were out, AND they both spent much time right up next to each other in their respective tanks. They were side by side we decided to give it a try.
We did our research and asked and gave it a shot monitoring them closely. Well its been 4 months now and there has been no problems at all. There is plenty of room for them to be separate if they so choose. 3 hides and another that has become a hide (hollow grapevine) they spend a lot of time together curled up in one hide or another. Both eat fine and one is ravenous. They are from the same breeder and have no problems. When one is out the other will search ceaslessly for the other until it is back in the viv.
If there was ever a problem they would be separated immediately.
I have caught wild corns and rats and have found them together many many times at many different times of year (not just mating season)

Just my experience for what its worth (and its not worth all that much compared to the knowledge of most of the members here)

Please go easy on me I bruise easily.... ha ha

Originally Posted by holly tayls

I ahve chosen to NOT weigh in on any of these threads as there are serious opinions here that cause much tension. In general everything that I have read, here, on other boards in other forums and even from kathy herself (as posted here in one of the other threads) as well as from breeders (several different as several different shows in CLE and COL) there is a split nearly down the middle. I read somewhere that kathy herself mad a mention that it is not horrible to house same sex together.
Personally I Do house my 2 females together now. I did not at start but after they were comfortable with us and we noticed that they ALWAYS gravitated to each other and curled up together when they were out, AND they both spent much time right up next to each other in their respective tanks. They were side by side we decided to give it a try.
We did our research and asked and gave it a shot monitoring them closely. Well its been 4 months now and there has been no problems at all. There is plenty of room for them to be separate if they so choose. 3 hides and another that has become a hide (hollow grapevine) they spend a lot of time together curled up in one hide or another. Both eat fine and one is ravenous. They are from the same breeder and have no problems. When one is out the other will search ceaslessly for the other until it is back in the viv.
If there was ever a problem they would be separated immediately.
I have caught wild corns and rats and have found them together many many times at many different times of year (not just mating season)

Just my experience for what its worth (and its not worth all that much compared to the knowledge of most of the members here)

Please go easy on me I bruise easily.... ha ha

I'm not going to bruise you too bad, I even agree with you. The only qualification I have is co-habing opposite sex. Since it is extremely difficult to sex a female (One of the bigger breeders said until they lay eggs) snake, I would be very watchful. I also do not think it is for beginners.
The part of you statement I do disagree with is split down the middle a recent poll said 71% disagree with co-habing. I've enclosed the link http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthr...t=cohabitation

I also don't think members who have been on her are "negative" but you here I just got my first corn snake-I another corn snake, I know it says not to keep them together, but couldn't I keep them together, my snakes aren't eating is it because they are together. Well a year has passed and one of my males (well at least I think they're males) is getting really fat and restless and won't eat, or the one I like best is "oops my corn layed eggs" now what do I do. So are some negative no just concerned for the snake and waiting for what will come after.

Thanks for going easy! I dont mean to state that anyone is negative not at all and that was not meant in any way. I think that people that have strong opinions is a good thing. How else will those of us that are learning actually learn. As for the Poll I did not see that. I have not looked at every thread on cohabitation but thanks for the link that is very educational.

The counter to your argument is what can go wrong with cohabitation, why it is not a good idea and outlining the things that can potentially go wrong. There isn’t some conspiracy amongst the majority of cornsnake owners to discourage cohabitation to forward some hidden agenda. The people that discourage it typically do so because they truly feel that it is putting our (and your) snakes at an unnecessary risk. I’m not saying that there aren’t people out there who have kept two cornsnakes together without problems. However, the fact that you are increasing the chances of stress, disease transmission, and cannibalism outweigh the benefits of saving a bit of space or money from having one less viv. It’s funny that, in my experience, there is no evidence that corns are anything other than solitary and that most people’s impressions of snakes in general is that they are “creepy, crawly, disgusting” creatures, yet so many people think that they need a “cuddle buddy” or whatever cutesy name someone wants to give it.
Plenty of people have kept bears, tigers, other big cats, venomous reptiles, etc in captivity with no problems. But there are still enough instances of captive animal aggression for whole television shows to be made about “When good animals go bad” and those are just the ones that are actually caught on tape. Similarly, two corns can live together for years and one suddenly become aggressive.

Originally Posted by HaisseM

I would think two corn snakes could live together on the basis that i've been doing it with no problems..

Okay, anecdotal evidence from one person. Does the fact that you have kept a pair of corns together without incidence (so far) completely negate all the stories of people who have had bad experiences with cohabitating them? There are two sides to every coin.

Originally Posted by HaisseM

also you talk about selective breeding.. I'm talking about regular owners (You know what I mean)

Originally Posted by HaisseM

Over time any animal would become tame (we've seen it with many wild animal) So the aggression towards one another can't be as high as you claim

You comments directly suggested that breeding cornsnakes as pets in some way should mean that they are more tolerable of cohabitation. My point is that this is only true IFF selective breeding was done specifically to produce cornsnakes that are in some way more tolerable of cohabitation, but that is not being done.
I will restate my original claim because it still holds true: Again, breeding corns as pets is not the same as breeding for cohabitation tolerant pets. The arguement that corns have been bred for pets would be, at best, marginally relevant if and only if the most docile cornsnakes were allowed to breed. I think most people would argue that the foremost criteria for selecting which corns are bred is coloration, pattern, etc. with temperment being one of the last criteria.
If you are breeding wild wolves in captivity (for example) then it is obviously in your best interest to choose the offspring that are the most docile. The same holds true for most other species that are captive bred. However, again, breeding stock for cornsnakes are not chosen based solely on their temperament. Breeders want to choose specimens that have the best coloration, patterns, etc and worry about temperament last. BESIDES, there is still no evidence that a snakes temperament is related to its tolerance of cohabitation with another snake.

Originally Posted by HaisseM

If they are well feed i can't see that actually happening

That’s hardly a reason to avoid cohabitation. Obviously it HAS happened, so you’re and my understanding of how likely it is, is irrelevant because it does/has happened. Again, opportunistic feeders.

Originally Posted by HaisseM

and many people have stated cannabilism is a rare

Sure it probably is rare, and I would submit that the people who defend cannibalism among corns as being rare are generally those who are defending cohabitation practices…but that is neither here nor there. But how many cases does it take before it becomes a problem. If I had just one snake eat another, that would be one too many. Why would I even cohabitate them and give them that opportunity in the first place? There’s no need to worry too much about the “cannibalism is rare” argument. If cannibalism were the only reason that cohabitation is discouraged then I might take it into account a bit more, but it’s not, so I don’t. And the “cannibalism is rare” argument could just be a lack of evidence. How many people who witness cannibalism amongst there corns are willing to out themselves publicly and face a group of people who will tell them they shouldn’t have cohabitated in the first place? My guess is that it might be more common than thought both in the wild and in captive snakes. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.