Live or F/T?

I've answered your question as good as I'm going to. If it doesn't satisfy you, then I don't know what to say.

As I've mentioned - I personally am only using live for snakes that refuse f/t (a few kings, one gopher, and one corn) and for every other feeding with females I plan to breed the following year. Lack of muscle tone increases the odds of egg binding, and all my live feeders are noticeably stronger than my f/t feeders, the benefit to those females (reduced odds of egg binding) outweighs the extremely small risk of an evolution honed instinctual process going amiss to the detriment of the snake.

So basically then all the statements that have been made about watching and being ready are BS... You haven't got a clue what to do in such an event.....Like I thought....
If you have an answer come back and tell me. Otherwise please don't post saying that watching and being ready is some kind of answer as it's very missleading to our newb members....

Originally Posted by FunkyRes

That's never been an issue. Occasionally a snake gets a bad grip (grabs the leg or whatever) but they always manage to coil nicely. In fact - I've witness a king coil a mouse without even biting it - because he had another mouse coiled that he was biting.

And it seems you put the food in two at a time....How are you going to be ready for that going wrong......Your statement was a hungry snake is a good killer.....It's not so hungry after eating the first mouse is it, so where do you stand on this now.......

Originally Posted by FunkyRes

I've answered your question as good as I'm going to. If it doesn't satisfy you, then I don't know what to say.

As I've mentioned - I personally am only using live for snakes that refuse f/t (a few kings, one gopher, and one corn) and for every other feeding with females I plan to breed the following year. Lack of muscle tone increases the odds of egg binding, and all my live feeders are noticeably stronger than my f/t feeders, the benefit to those females (reduced odds of egg binding) outweighs the extremely small risk of an evolution honed instinctual process going amiss to the detriment of the snake.

For your f/t feeders, do you simply place the mouse in the tub/tank and leave it, or do you dangle and wave it about using tongs?

Also, accidents whilst using live mice don't solely occur when the snake is uninterested. A mouse/rat will fight much harder when it knows its on the brink of death, as opposed to simply being allowed to walk around unmolested and maybe have a bite after a while. As you said yourself, you're vastly experienced with all this, so tell me, do the live rodents that you feed attempt to kick, scratch and bite when they are captured? As Mike said, I'm pretty sure you don't have a sixth sense telling you when a rodent is going to bite, nor do you have the reactions to intervene in time.

For the females that constrict f/t I'm not feeding them live. Unfortunately some of them are quite lazy, and need live to constrict.

No, accidents don't solely occur when a snake is uninterested. However - that is when the vast majority of accidents that do happen and scare people into only feeding f/t occur.

Rats are more likely to fight back than mice, rats also are predators in their own right, rats are far more dangerous of a prey item than mice - I don't ever use live rats.

If you've ever seen a snake constrict live prey, you can see they put far more effort into it than when they constrict dangled prey. This is because they don't stop constricting until the mouse has stopped moving, and constrict harder with each movement of the mouse.

If you've ever caught a wild constrictor, you will feel it's strength compared to healthy captive bred of same size, they are much much stronger. Lack of muscle tone is cited as a contributing factor to egg binding, and it is logical - muscles are used to move the eggs down to the vent. Since our captive snakes are already weaker than their wild counterparts, if constricting prey can add to their muscle tone, then it makes sense that egg binding is reduced by live prey, as noted by the breeder mentioned in the Love book I quoted.

Sure, there is risk, but the risk really is over stated, and in the case of breeding females, I do believe that the benefit outweighs the risk. I didn't until I lost a female to egg binding, and did some research on the causes of egg binding.

No one is denying that there is a danger, but I can tell you that the vast majority of mice that are preyed upon never bite the snake, and the few that do, it rarely is anywhere near the head - and heals extremely quickly.

I'm sure that most of the "live feeding is always bad" is knee jerk emotional reaction to the very graphic pictures of what rats have done to ball pythons and boas when left with them unattended.

Even with WC snakes being fed for the very first time in captivity - my experience is they will eat very quickly or not at all. If the mouse does not invoke near instant feeding response, get it out of there.

Like I said I feed F/T. We should make a video and put it on here to show you how to do it...We tease our snakes and make them work for there dinner, our coastal will come over 2 ft out of its viv to get the prey and then with a bit of pulling it constricts long after a live mouse/ rat would be dead.... We start all our snakes easier than that, after all they are babies. But as soon as they get to sub adult size we work them.....Try it, then tell me about muscle tone... Plus regular handling and making them stretch for the next hold works them some more.... But I'm still waiting for your answer on how you stop this bite occurring... Or shall we let that one go as there isn't an answer?

Originally Posted by Snake Dave

For your f/t feeders, do you simply place the mouse in the tub/tank and leave it, or do you dangle and wave it about using tongs?

I guess it depends on the snake. I only have three, but they're all different. Thanagar will bite and constrict with the enthusiasm of a starving retic, I don't even think he has time to figure out the mouse is already dead. I totally work him, but it's hard because he's so fast sometimes. Amel boy needs to feel a little more comfortable, I stick him in an old pair of pants with his head sticking out, I can't work him unless he has the ambush advantage. FinFang is pretty hard to work, I usually give up and stick him in a feeding tub for 30 minutes or so.

Sometimes, when I'm busy they all get the feeding tub.

You work your snakes if you can.....Thats the way to do it......To give up and feed live and claim it's for the best is a cop out...... We all know our snakes, if we take the time to get involved...

I still don't buy your theory. Kathy Love also stated in her book that she noticed less dystocia when she moved her gravid females to larger tubs, allowing them more room to move around and exercise. When you quote...quote everything. Wild snakes will always be stronger than captive. They exercise daily, traveling miles perhaps in their search for food. Ours basically have an 84 sq. in. space to travel in. Not very big. I'll bet my snakes constrict f/t for as long as yours do. My Jaya type green tree python will hold a mouse for sometimes 30 minutes before he eats. My corns will routinely hold the mouse for at least 2-3 minutes, sometimes longer before they unwrap and eat. You were also stating that you place more than one live item in with your snake. That would worry me as well. How you can monitor two live animals and keep anything from happening is beyond me. Whatever works for you is fine. All my animals (and yes, I have more than a couple) eat f/t without issue. Wildcaught, cbb, and offspring...they all take it and they almost all constrict. There really isn't all that much exercise induced by the constriction. Crawling around for a long time is far more essential in my book.

Sorry Meg but I think we scared him off earlier... About 8 hrs ago to be precise...... He gave up then.... Shame really he was up for it until we asked for proof.... Oh well