Tessera Debate

Originally Posted by StrangeCargo

Like I always say- there's nothing to hide.

Graham,

Just to be clear...I am not insinuating that you, Don, or KJ have anything at all to hide. Not one bit. (In fact, see below). What my earlier post was attempting to point out is the fact that the situation has not been handled in the smoothest of fashions. You and KJ have tried to do what you can to discuss this morph and Don has chimed in a few times. I'm sure it becomes really annoying when all these members come out of the woodwork just to claim hybrid and then disappear. It is irritating just to read these accusations. However, when the "new" colors have to be posted by someone else and very little is done to field the accusations, it makes the thing a big mess....and that is what I said..."A recipe for problems"

Sure, there is probably not much that you can do to stop some of these unfounded accusations by members that are really no more than trouble makers. Some of these posters are dead set on what they believe without ever breeding or even seeing one of these in person. How do you defend against that? I'm not sure. What I do know is by putting every card on the table it is hard to not come out on top. Don, KJ, and you are respected members of cornsnakes.com and beyond. The comments the three of you have put forth are more than enough for many of the people in the industry. In fact, they have been plenty for me. And since you have mentioned it....yes, my conversations with you as well as conversations with KJ did in fact cause me to send some very nice animals that direction so I, too, could participate in this morph and am very thankful for the opportunity.

The adult Tesseras will be coming back at the end of the season from KJ- we had some really nice high end females on loan from Jeff Mohr that we were crossing the Tessera too for upcoming Tessera morph projects...

Jeff- "If there is nothing to hide (and quite possibly there isn't) then why don't the producers of this new morph bring everything they have to the table?" WE DO! We had them at Daytona when we were right up the isle from you. We had multiple people ask to see tham and happily handed them to 'em for detailed inspection Don brings the normal siblings with him to every show he does also I believe. You'll get your share of the clutches this year from KJ & I. Make sure you tell KJ that you want some of the normals... KJ normally just wholesales the normal siblings as normal corns to petstores I believe... You're a great photographer and hopefully will post lots of pics of the normals here on cornsnakes.com

I do plan on getting photos of everything that is my share. Again, I do not think you have anything to hide....just right here on the forums there is not the full disclosure and that causes problems. Unfortunately, I did not see the normals you brought to Daytona last year. I wish I had so I could say more. With my own tables, Rich Z's retirement sale and other things going on I was just too preoccupied to think more of anything else. I saw the tesseras in person, held them, photographed them and was amazed like everyone else. So much so we work out several loans. I missed the normals and wish I had not...but for me it really wouldn't make a difference. I trust you guys and I trust the history as it has been presented.

What I do wish, however, was that Don would come here and explain his clutch to the best of his ability. He hatched them and he's hatched more snakes than probably anyone on the forums besides Rich and Kathy. A few pics of all the snakes with a few comments on the odd head patterns of the normals in the clutch would go a LONG WAY in silencing the newly unfounded accusations. And yes, I guess you could say I'm selfish. I am invested in this morph with the various loans we have discussed. I hate to see an excellent morph lose credibility because of a small handful of doubters. Leaving doubt linger does not decrease the doubters cause. Coming back with reputation and information can only strengthen the truth.

I can talk until I'm blue in the face but it doesn't matter- people will think what they want. It's GOOD to question things- especially NEW morphs- thats human nature and everyone expects it... BUT after 3 years of unfounded rumors and NO evidence, it's turning into a broken record thats starting to look like personal attacks.

Sadly, you are correct. A few will not believe no matter what you tell them. For the rest, however, cards on the table will virtually erase any issues. Look at the pied-sided conversations from a while ago. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96383) Although rough in areas, when the dust settled there was more information on the Pied-sided cornsnakes than I think had ever been presented before. For me, it was a very educational thread and was very glad it made an appearance and it dispelled many of the major issues of the morph.

Originally Posted by mike17l

Do you even know what you are talking about.



You are are the one that said that the change in the pepper moth was the result of evolution, I said that the change was a result of SOTF.

As i explained SOTF is not a scientific term. Evolution normally takes a thousand generations but it makes evolutionary jumps from time to time that's what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by mike17l

No no, you full well implied, never said, but definitilly implied. But at this point, I really do not know what your point it.

I did not imply, I love these animals and I believe with all my heart that they are NOT hybrids.

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

What I do wish, however, was that Don would come here and explain his clutch to the best of his ability. He hatched them and he's hatched more snakes than probably anyone on the forums besides Rich and Kathy. A few pics of all the snakes with a few comments on the odd head patterns of the normals in the clutch would go a LONG WAY in silencing the newly unfounded accusations. And yes, I guess you could say I'm selfish. I am invested in this morph with the various loans we have discussed. I hate to see an excellent morph lose credibility because of a small handful of doubters. Leaving doubt linger does not decrease the doubters cause. Coming back with reputation and information can only strengthen the truth.

One would think that the high volume of CS.com would warrant a bit a thread of our own, without it having to be copied from somewhere else by someone else (with permission, obviously). I realize this is a super-busy time of year. I guess we should count ourselves as lucky to get a copy!

No worries Jeff! I'm glad we were able to work with you this year- you have some great animals and the future Tessera morphs that will result from your help will be amazing.


I emailed Don- his wife had surgery this morning or he'd be posting.... BUT he's sending me a bunch of fresh pictures on entire Tessera clutches that he said I can share from a multitude of different parents.

Just on a side note- hasn't the ultra gene originator came out and said that grey rat WAS used in their making? Those non-perfect Tessera morphs (ultramel & anery tesseras) were from a Tessera X Ultramel Anery ... could that explain the odd patterns? Who knows- I wish I honestly had the answer.


abell82- No problem- lots of comments here- easy to get people mixed up.


We're in a rain storm so the internet is coming & going... I'll post the fresh clutch pics once I get them...

Graham

Wait, WHAT!?! Didn't you say...

Originally Posted by StrangeCargo

Hopefully in 2011... I have a male tessera het butter and a huge proven Ultra Caramel female (she lays NICE big healthy clutches... plus theres a great proven female ultramel het caramel motley and a Ultra motley caramel young female).... I'm workin' on them....

NOW your saying...

Originally Posted by StrangeCargo

Just on a side note- hasn't the ultra gene originator came out and said that grey rat WAS used in their making? Those non-perfect Tessera morphs (ultramel & anery tesseras) were from a Tessera X Ultramel Anery ... could that explain the odd patterns? Who knows- I wish I honestly had the answer.

Graham

So while you claim that the original Tessera was not a hybrid, and that you don't deal in hybrids...YOU do plan on breeding them into hybrids, in the future. Which will make MORE Hybrids?

This REALLY does NOT help your case in my opinion.

I'm wondering though, if the first corns were wild caught, who's to say they they haven't bred with other rat snakes? Like someone else said, they'd all be hybrids, even if it was generations and generations ago.

I thought this was more of a "discussion" than a "I'm going to attack you personally" thread. It's kind of disappointing.

I believe that the breeders that work with Tesseras are honest with what they know. I don't believe they have anything to gain by lying.

Originally Posted by abell82

Wait, WHAT!?! Didn't you say...



NOW your saying...




So while you claim that the original Tessera was not a hybrid, and that you don't deal in hybrids...YOU do plan on breeding them into hybrids, in the future. Which will make MORE Hybrids?

This REALLY does NOT help your case in my opinion.

Abell, we all get it, you believe they're hybrids and hate all of the people that are working with them. All you've done since you came in here is attack people (Mike, Graham, etc.) and nay-say without any real showing of an open mind and opinion. If you come to discuss with an open mind please do so, if you're just going to take shots and add nothing but negative comments to the discussion, go to the other place and have a blast.

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

Graham,
Just to be clear...I am not insinuating that you, Don, or KJ have anything at all to hide. Not one bit. (In fact, see below). What my earlier post was attempting to point out is the fact that the situation has not been handled in the smoothest of fashions. You and KJ have tried to do what you can to discuss this morph and Don has chimed in a few times. I'm sure it becomes really annoying when all these members come out of the woodwork just to claim hybrid and then disappear. It is irritating just to read these accusations. However, when the "new" colors have to be posted by someone else and very little is done to field the accusations, it makes the thing a big mess....and that is what I said..."A recipe for problems"

For whom is this a problem or big mess?

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

Sure, there is probably not much that you can do to stop some of these unfounded accusations by members that are really no more than trouble makers. Some of these posters are dead set on what they believe without ever breeding or even seeing one of these in person. How do you defend against that? I'm not sure. What I do know is by putting every card on the table it is hard to not come out on top. Don, KJ, and you are respected members of cornsnakes.com and beyond. The comments the three of you have put forth are more than enough for many of the people in the industry. In fact, they have been plenty for me. And since you have mentioned it....yes, my conversations with you as well as conversations with KJ did in fact cause me to send some very nice animals that direction so I, too, could participate in this morph and am very thankful for the opportunity.

Jeff, for the past four years, SMR has routinely produced 47 corn morphs that have never been advertised. I don't expect you to understand that I'm too busy to post every new morph I produce, and as long as they keep selling by word-of-mouth, that may not change. Those that know me never fail to ask "what's out of the eggs that's not on your site, Don?"

When recently begged, I posted the new colors of Tesseras that hatched last week - over on The Source. When Tara asked if she could mention it over here, I said, "sure". Hatching 100 corns a day keeps me very busy - along with everything else that keeps SMR running. If I haven't had time to brag about the 47 corn morphs I produce annually (or even enough time to put them on my web site), it should be obvious that I'm distracted by the prioritization of the care and management of the snakes (and shipping) - over bragging about our latest morphs. I realize that the two go hand-in-hand (production AND marketing), but in the limited time I have, I tend to put out the fires that are flaming in front of me (hungry snakes). As long as the unadvertised morphs are selling without being advertised, they're not "on fire" so I'll concentrate on feeding and otherwise maintaining the snakes. SMR is not an admirable business model, but so far, it's been working. Being the first in the world to reproduce p/s bloodreds, don't you think I'd have them splashed all over my web site - if I had the time and if they were not selling? They have never been on my web site, but that will soon change with the new web site now under construction. If someone has a question for me or chooses to allude to the fact that my absence from this forum could indicate I have something to hide about the Tesseras, why don't they write to my web site and request an explanation on this forum? I realize you and others are saying "Don, I wasn't doubting you, KJ, and Graham", but anyone reading this thread understands the innuendos. I fully expect people to question new morphs (I wrote the book on Cornsnake Hybrid Conspiracy), but that can be done without making accusations. I recall (and miss) the days when I had so much spare time I could frequent the forums, but those days are not THESE days. I hope to get back into that soon.

For everyone's information, the anery Tessera IS a hybrid. It's an Ultramel. I have bred Tessera males to many non Tessera females, but only when I pair one with an Ultra-type do I get squirrely markings and other hybrid markers (on mutants and non-mutants alike. Duh - Ultras are hybrids. So, unless alluvasudden Ultras/ultramels are no longer considered corns, I'll continue to breed them into my pure corns. If they are now considered hybrids, hundreds (if not thousands) of corn breeders have some scurrying to do and graves to dig.

Regarding the innuendos that we (Graham, KJ, and Don) have failed to show everyone the non Tessera siblings, those "innuendos" are founded. We have not shown you the non-target byproducts of this mutation. It never occurred to me that Tesseras were suspected of being hybrid, or I would have posted pix of the "normals". That said, how many pix would it take to convince those of you that believe they are not pure corns? Dozens? Hundreds? It seems to me that the two of you are so dubious about them being pure corns that if I posted pix of 80 non-mutant Tessera siblings, you'd say I purposely didn't show you the odd ones. Those that know me don't have to read what I'm about to say. . . I have never misled, exaggerated, or fabricated any facts that would cover up any hybridization of corns. If Tesseras are hybrids, they are hybrids, but since I have produced more than everyone else combined, I can tell you that I have not seen hybrid markers in any of them (other than the Ultra/Tessera compounds) and in speaking to Graham and KJ, they agree. And let me tell you, those Ultramel Tesseras are all over the map in terms of being aberrant (BUT they are the only morphs), so if the majority of the hobby have suddenly decided to recognize that Ultra-types are hybrids, I will respond accordingly, and stop breeding them into "pure" corns. Of course , , , it's too late, isn't it?

When I was alerted today that some folks over here were demanding evidence, I took several hours this afternoon to photograph some of the non-mutant Tessera siblings. I have resized and processed those pix, and will assign URLs to them for your review. I see no reason to clog the arteries of CS with the 27 images I produced today. Again, doubters are difficult to convert, and it is not my intention to try. Something IS what something IS. If Tesseras are hybrids, it is news to me, but I will never stand up and shout that they are NOT hybrids. Since I didn't see the parents of the one Graham gave me (or the grand parents or great grand parents, etc.), I don't know their lineage, but folks - if the red eyes of lavenders, the atypical colors non-caramel by-products exhibit, the squirrely patterns of zig zags/aztecs, the uncornly patterns of motleys and stripes, the head pattern/color/star-gazing/mean temperament of Sunkisseds, or the atypical corn snake appearance of Ashies/Cinders don't make you protest, having seen hundreds of Tesseras and their siblings, I can tell you that this dominant mutation does not demonstrate hybrid markers - compared to some of the ones I just mentioned. In fact, they have more consistent phenotype than motleys, stripes, zagtecs, sunkissed, or bloodreds. If you start weeding out corns that don't look like corns, be prepared to have a very small cornsnake morph inventory. Again, I understand doubts, but if this personal testimony (and the evidence presented) is not sufficient to convince you they are pure corns, I suggest you add Tesseras to the already long list of questionable-looking corn mutations and morphs. From what I have produced so far, there is not one I'd consider more bazaar than the most typical of the non-corn looking morphs I've cited (unless you count the Ultramel/Tessera compounds that Tara posted for me).

Later tonight, I will post the URLs for the 27 photogarphs of non-mutant Tessera siblings.

Don

Originally Posted by Pruddock

Abell, we all get it, you believe they're hybrids and hate all of the people that are working with them. All you've done since you came in here is attack people (Mike, Graham, etc.) and nay-say without any real showing of an open mind and opinion. If you come to discuss with an open mind please do so, if you're just going to take shots and add nothing but negative comments to the discussion, go to the other place and have a blast.

REALLLLLLY?...

I believe I said a page or two back, that you could stop reading, as you wouldn't change my mind so....

WHAT else could I say to that, except ...
The moon is made of cheese. Blue cheese as I recall. Mike told us that, so it HAS to be true...

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...tessera&page=4

I'd like to add...

Thank You, Don S. for stopping by to add your input.

Abell82 I just don't get your antagonistic tone here? You believe tessera's to be hybrids so to you this is a true statement, but in reality you have no more evidence than those who say they are not. Unfortunately hybridization occurs naturally in the wild and compound that with dubious breeders it comes down to the fact that no one can say without a doubt "I have a pure corn". What is a pure corn anyway- is there even a DNA sample available. All one can say is here are the parents, here are the hatchlings, and I believe them to be pure because they look like corns to me. If thats been good enough for you with other morphs whats the issue here?

I believe Don, KJ, and Graham have been open and honest with their representation of tessera's. To my knowledge they never saw the parents of the originals, but after hatching hundreds of this particular morph and thousands of others combined I believe they are skilled enough to make an educated guess at the very least. To their knowledge these are NOT hybrids or you believe they are misleading us on purpose- which is it? I agree there is no way to prove or disprove their lineage because the parents genetics were unknown, but I don't feel these guys are misleading us either. Why get so argumentative about something you can neither prove or disprove? Your opinion is yours and other's share similar opinions, but there is no real need to be nasty about it either