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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Tessera Debate
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:31 PM   #61
Nanci
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
I think we should all just stop this discussion. Nobody is going anywhere with this, we're not going to convince the handful of people who believe these animals are pure.
I think it's worthwhile in that it explores questions people have about "what if." We all have more information now, instead of just being told "They are not hybrids because Don and KJ and Graham say so." Now we know the arguments and the rebuttals, and have more to base our opinions on.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 05:38 PM   #62
abell82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
Just another FYI, todate: there have been no "throw back" animals produced in any tessera clutch produced by KJ or Don. Now look at champagne corns, every now and then you get some raised keels (a "throw back").
Umm... Don't you mean that YOU, Kjun and Don haven't identified any "throwbacks" from these breedings? What kind of throw backs would you look for? Maybe a normal with an aberrant head pattern?



Here's an interesting little tidbit. The more crosses in a snake the less frequent, the throwback. (Or maybe they just become harder to Id as "throwbacks") So if you cross a Creamsicle, to a Beast, and then That offspring to a Cornduran, Then those to a Frosted Ultramel, What are you going to look for, as a throwback, again?

Any ideas? So ah what do you look for in a Corn that's 6% or less European Rat?
 
Old 06-27-2010, 05:40 PM   #63
mike17l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
Within 1 generation a brown/green moth turned white. Why? Well the moss which covered the trees they sat on turned white due to pollution. Next year a few moths where white, the year after that ALL moths were white.
Are they hybrids too? No, it's a genetic mutation!
That would be three generations, not one. And that is not evolution, that is survival of the fittest. SOTF drives evolution, but itself is not evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
I love the Tessera morph and I have a hard time believing them to be hybrids, bred to have a garter snake pattern but all the other markers of a cornsnake. That would take at least a decade to produce and is a near impossible task.
.
You do know that garter snakes give live birth dont you? If tesseras were a hybrid with some species of garter snake, that piece of information alone would be worth far more than many many tesseras.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 05:43 PM   #64
mike17l
abell, still waiting for you to identify some hybrid markers (obvious or cryptic) that you have personally identified in nontessera siblings.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 05:51 PM   #65
Cornparadise
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
That would be three generations, not one. And that is not evolution, that is survival of the fittest. SOTF drives evolution, but itself is not evolution.
Actually that would be 2......And SOTF doesn't change the look of a entire species in 2 generations. As I assume your not a scientist, and scientists call it an evolutionary jump. Then to me it's evolution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
You do know that garter snakes give live birth dont you? If tesseras were a hybrid with some species of garter snake, that piece of information alone would be worth far more than many many tesseras.
I'm dutch so, sorry if I get the english names mixed up. But condescending is also not necessary.

FYI; I always find it funny when people start to be condescending while the other person is in no way rude. Always tells a lot about a person's character.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:06 PM   #66
mike17l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
Actually that would be 2......And SOTF doesn't change the look of a entire species in 2 generations. As I assume your not a scientist, and scientists call it an evolutionary jump. Then to me it's evolution. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
Within 1 generation a brown/green moth turned white. Why? Well the moss which covered the trees they sat on turned white due to pollution(1st generation). Next year a few moths where white (2nd generation, the year after that ALL moths were white (3rd generation).
Are they hybrids too? No, it's a genetic mutation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
I'm dutch so, sorry if I get the english names mixed up. But condescending is also not necessary.

FYI; I always find it funny when people start to be condescending while the other person is in no way rude. Always tells a lot about a person's character.
So you did or didn't know garter snakes give live birth?
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:27 PM   #67
Cornparadise
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
So you did or didn't know garter snakes give live birth?
again patronizing me. Yes I did know Thamnophis gives live birth. Just not my kind of snake. Plus again I'm Dutch and don't always get the English names straight.

But then again one could be nicer to somebody
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:33 PM   #68
mike17l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornparadise View Post
again patronizing me. Yes I did know Thamnophis gives live birth. Just not my kind of snake. Plus again I'm Dutch and don't always get the English names straight.

But then again one could be nicer to somebody
You implied that teserra was a hybrid a garter snake, I was just trying to get some clarification.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:35 PM   #69
Cornparadise
BTW Mike, evolution normally takes thousands of generations. Not 1, 2 or 3.

SOTF is NOT a scientific description, it's also incomplete and a misleading term. It doesn't convey the complexity of natural selection.
So SOTF is only a SMALL portion that drives evolution there is way way way more that comes into play.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:38 PM   #70
Cornparadise
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
You implied that teserra was a hybrid a garter snake, I was just trying to get some clarification.
Read my post again and you will find I said no such thing. I said that some people seem to believe genetic mutation is far more unlikely then it being a hybrid with another species just for the pattern. And then taking the time, money and determination to produce a cornsnake with that pattern. Sorry but that sound pretty unbelievable. Especially when that goal is finally reached the animals are then sold on as normal motley/striped corns at low costs.

Now what is more likely, a genetic mutation which happens every day and is as normal as the earth revolving around the sun.
Or the hybrid theory?
 

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