Tessera Debate

Do you even know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Cornparadise

BTW Mike, evolution normally takes thousands of generations. Not 1, 2 or 3.

SOTF is NOT a scientific description, it's also incomplete and a misleading term. It doesn't convey the complexity of natural selection.
So SOTF is only a SMALL portion that drives evolution there is way way way more that comes into play.

You are are the one that said that the change in the pepper moth was the result of evolution, I said that the change was a result of SOTF.

Originally Posted by Cornparadise

Read my post again and you will find I said no such thing. I said that some people seem to believe genetic mutation is far more unlikely then it being a hybrid with another species just for the pattern. And then taking the time, money and determination to produce a cornsnake with that pattern. Sorry but that sound pretty unbelievable. Especially when that goal is finally reached the animals are then sold on as normal motley/striped corns at low costs.

Now what is more likely, a genetic mutation which happens every day and is as normal as the earth revolving around the sun.
Or the hybrid theory?

No no, you full well implied, never said, but definitilly implied. But at this point, I really do not know what your point it.

How are we going to prove out whether or not its a hybrid? We can't at this point..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Originally Posted by TandJ

How are we going to prove out whether or not its a hybrid? We can't at this point..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

We can not prove it one way or the others, but those that think it is a hybrid should be providing evidence for it. Maybe I missed it, but I do not think that anyone has done such. There is a lot of conjecture and opinion, but no evidence for hybridization. The burdon of proof falls on the hybrid believers.

Mike,... Mikey..

Originally Posted by mike17l

Do you even know what you are talking about.

You are are the one that said that the change in the pepper moth was the result of evolution, I said that the change was a result of SOTF.

No no, you full well implied, never said, but definitilly implied. But at this point, I really do not know what your point it.

TSK ...TSK... Mike... attacking someone that is trying to help your cause? Why Mike? Maybe you should think about not responding until you can comprehend what's being said?

Cornparadise, was indeed on Graham's side and trying to help, and you jumped in and attacked him like a rabid pit bull. Put the alcohol, or the key board away Mike, they aren't mixing, well.

(And don't say you weren't drinking for the love of GOD man, I'm giving you an "OUT" take it graciously and appologize to a possible future customer. {That would be Cornparadise just so you know.} I know that with all that alcohol running through your head (Nudge,Nudge,Wink,Wink) it's hard to think straight!)

Originally Posted by mike17l

Just another FYI, todate: there have been no "throw back" animals produced in any tessera clutch produced by KJ or don. Now look at champagne corns, every now and then you get some raised keels (a "throw back").

That's a really good point, Mike, that Tesseras haven't yet shown any raised keels or any other clearly non-cornsnake morphology. I don't know if there are enough of them YET, but if that persists, that would be reasonably strong evidence that Tesseras are NOT hybrids. Time will either support that or not.

The other route, of course, is to wait until there are plenty of genetic markers that can sort guttata from other colubrids that can crossbreed with guttata, then test Tesseras for other markers.

At this point there is an abundance of hybridized wanna be corns out there probably in all our collections without us even knowing it....seriously. Hybridization can't ever be reversed, but it can be hidden. Cross a corn and rat, raise the hatchlings into adults, breed all adults back to corns for a few generations and you have a visual cornsnake with no outward markers but the internal DNA of both I'm not saying tesseras are hybrids- I'm saying there are plenty of hybrids out there with no external markers

I don't know much about Tesseras, they're pretty, but not my cup of tea.

But honestly, there really isn't a way of proving they're hybrids yet. There's no point in going at each other's throats and arguing the same points over and over.

No joy in fighting with a keyboard.

Originally Posted by ziggybond_007

No joy in fighting with a keyboard.

Maybe not, but that thought gives you an awesome image ;D

Originally Posted by CodeRed

Maybe not, but that thought gives you an awesome image ;D

Rofl, yes it does. Hahaha.

I think some markers that could be looked for would include
eye-size, nose length, scale articulation and shape,
head shape, tail length, live or egg-layer.
These are some more obvious traits to tell non-corns. Not really any value would be clutch count/size. Miamis tend have lots of eggs and smaller.
Cryptic markers could be examined for by dissection and microscopy of body fluids and organs. There would be some diffferences in genitalia. And of course DNA testing which might not be conclusive.
No throw-backs yet? What have they, 3 generations now since discovery? I fully believe it would've been reported by those working on it. They stand nothing to gain by passing off hybrids as 'pure' corns. If one pops up, it will be seen and become known. I'd've guessed there would have been a decent % already if hybrid. Not one! And although I haven't seen every of the probably 5-8 dozen Tessara hatchlings that exist (less?), they have been photographed and seen by many ppl by now.
When I look at known hybrids, even ones crossed back to corns couple gens, there are those that just have that non-corn look about them. If you look at the Tessaras, other than pattern, they look 100% as any corn.