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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available. |
new to bloodred..
03-31-2004, 11:47 AM
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#81
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@Darin - the second photo postet by jelle is not a butterbloodred. It's a butter out of the clutch from pewter where also one butterblood hatched. As you see, the belly is nearly white with only some specles but hasn't that creeping yellow in it.
So - especially such an animal shouldn't be in the clutch when it is ONLY dominant-recessive.
Did I lose you a second time???
Perhaps the 3 pictures in comparison - to see why I meant that it isn't that easy to distingush them by the belly:
Normal Butter: (c) pewter
ButterBloodred: (c) pewter
And at last the odd Butter out of the Butterbloodred project from jelle: (Photo also from jelle!!! - sorry, couldn't just link it, had to attach...)
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03-31-2004, 12:05 PM
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#82
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Belly
To me, this has always been the benchmark for bloodreds. Whatever was happening dorsally or laterally seemed variable. I only called them bloodred if they had "bloodred" belly pattern.
Now, new can of worms. I was telling Darin yesterday that most of my bloodreds do not have "clear" or even white bellies. In fact, I don't think I own one that has a white belly unless it's pewters. ALL of my pewters have virtually completely white bellies, but not a single other color of bloodred does. Most of classically colored bloodreds have mostly red bellies. Some as much as 95% red. All of the albinos have 1/3 to 2/3 red bellies.
Except for literally a few black flecks or specks, what all of those bloodreds have in common is the lack of black checkering. That is, they have no more than dots of black Vs the relatively huge black checkers found on nominate corns.
To me, the standard has always been:
If it has the atypically, uncheckered belly that is heretofore characteristically recognized as the "bloodred" belly, it is a bloodred. Regardless of what color it is or how hazy, faded, diluted, diffused the pattern is laterally or dorsally. As Kathy says, the belly has always been the benchmark for bloodreds, but I'm adding the part about it rarely being a patternless, white belly.
On another note. I never liked the term "hurricane" for those motleys. Jim Stelpflug called them donut motleys. I called them bullseye motleys referring to the two concentric circles. It was only when I was repeatedly told about the hurricane name that was coined long ago, I relented and put that into print. I don't like the name hurricane as I spend hours a year explaining it to folks and why their perfectly circled motleys are not hurricanes. They usually shrug me off as not knowing what I'm talking about and defer to what they were told when they bought their "counterfeir" hurricanes.
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03-31-2004, 12:06 PM
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#83
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Some comments about Eddie Leach...
I just read the other thread about this subject, but since this one is newer and more active, no point in keeping two going on the same subject.
It goes back quite a long time to the early bloodred years, but this is to the best of my memory...
We were over to Eddie's house a couple, or maybe a few, times in the early '80s when he was working on the project. From what I remember, he collected some deep red corns in the Supds / Hastings area and started breeding them together. I can't remember if any of the originals lacked ventral checks, I think that came with a little inbreeding. But I do remember that he was excited that some had a lot of orange towards the rear half and was trying to get more of that. When he decided to get out of corns completely about the mid 80s or so, I believe he charged more for the ones with the most ventral orange, so that has been with the morph from the beginning.
We were there the first night he sold any (Ernie Wagner called Eddie while we were there, and he got the second pick of any originals that were sold). As I mentioned earlier, Eddie was circulating a price list for "corn golds". We immediately came up with bloodreds and Ernie picked his own name, which didn't stick. It was an exciting time!
Because of the huge clutches of tiny babies that didn't want to feed (their eggs also had a common characteristic of translucent "windows" and"strings of pearls" effect that connected many of the eggs, but didn't seem to affect hatch rates), we immediately started outcrossing to other strains, especially hypos. I now have only one original, inbred strain female left. She is a '92 baby, still going strong, but for how much longer? I have been breeding her to her son (who is het for hypo and much oranger than she is) and the babies genrerally don't look nearly as deep red as she is. I have saved some back, but probably should save LOTS back this year - it is always possible that this could be her last year to produce.
I also met Eddie's daughter - gave her a Manual to give to dad. She said he has been out of snakes for a long time, but wanted to show him his name remembered.
Anyway, this trip down memory lane is what I remember. Bill was with me every time we visited. He is not here now, but I will check with him later and see if he remembers anything differently from what I do, and make corrections accordingly. Hope this answers most of the questions about the origin of bloodreds.
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03-31-2004, 12:21 PM
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#84
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Menhir,
Now that I see what you are saying, let me address each of those three pictures, in order.
First: Obviously, that is a normal butter, and its checkering is certainly obvious.
Second: That is a butter "bloodred" and it lacks the checkering completely and has the yellow "creeping effect" about which I wrote before.
Third: That is a butter het for the "bloodred" pattern, and it is expressing exactly what one would expect it to express, if I am seeing it correctly. I see a clear stripe (no checks within the stripe in the center of the belly) running down the center of the belly, and checks (which, in the case of the butter, happen to be yellow/clear) on either side of the clear stripe. Whether there is any yellow creeping in from the sides further down towards the tail or not, I cannot see.
However, those pictures seem to me to be proving what I was saying rather than disproving them. The difficulty for me was not being able to recognize the pattern differences of the non-het, het, and homozygous animals, but rather the color of the checks of the butter het "bloodred" pattern animal. That light yellow color simply did not catch my attention when I first saw the picture. Now that I am looking more closely, the pattern seems to be EXACTLY what one would expect.
Does anyone have an animal that is het for the bloodred pattern mutation that DOES NOT exhibit the belly pattern previously described to one degree or another? I know some of them are almost completely clear from checks, and some are almost completely checkered, but they all, at least ALL that I have EVER seen, they all have the checks along the sides with a "checker free" stripe down the center. Does anyone have an animal they know to be het for the pattern that does not show this anomaly?
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03-31-2004, 12:24 PM
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#85
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I've come really late into this thread, and I must admit that the last several pages didn't get totally read. I also admit that I am definately NOT an expert on Bloodreds. In fact I never really liked them until the Pewters came out. Throughout my reading of this thread (which has given me a slight head-ache, Thank you all very much ! LOL), I have thought of what I have always considered the Bloodreds to look like....light colored heads as hatchlings, white or speckled belly (definately no distinct checks), and a dorsal pattern that becomes "infused" with the ground color and "obscurring" the actual pattern as the snake reaches maturity. Rich hit the term that I was thinking of..."hyper-erythristic". I don't care for the name "diffuse" and not "patternless" (mostly because that name should be reserved for when we actually develop a corn snake that is born without a pattern!).
Rich's "hyper-erythristic" name would work great for the actual RED Bloodreds (but keeping them Bloodreds is perfect for them), but not for the other colors. "Pewter" is great for the Charcoal Bloodreds since it actually describes the snake as a mature adult. I am certain that other names will come up to describe perfectly Lavender Bloodreds, Caramel Bloodreds, Butter Bloodreds, etc. However, we are still lacking a different name for the actual mutation. Working on Rich's train of thought, I came up with "hyper-spectral", translating into "above in degree or extent the colors of the rainbow".
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03-31-2004, 12:35 PM
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#86
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Heck, I don't know....
But I think the odds of me calling this particular cultivar as a "Diffused Lavender Corn" are pretty slim.
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03-31-2004, 12:52 PM
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#87
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LOL, and to think--my first impression when looking at that corn was "What a wonderful example of the diffusion pattern we've been talking about."
Very nice pattern on that one.
(I wish I still had the old paint program I had when I had a Mac. It had a 'diffusion' effect that was basically a scrambling locally of the pixels of the picture. It would take a sharp black outline and "pepper" it out with higher concentrations of "molecules" where the line was, with a thinning of particles as you move laterally from the point of origin....ending up with something that looks just like that snake. )
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03-31-2004, 12:57 PM
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#88
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Rich - I would call it an Amethyst corn...JMHO.
GORGEOUS!!!
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03-31-2004, 01:01 PM
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#89
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ΕΠΙΣΚΙΆΖΩ -- Eclipse, outshine, overshadow, shade, shadow
The above Greek term (pronounced as: epi-skee-AH-dzo), with the accompanying meanings might be anglicized for us as "episkiastic" and serve as a good name for the pattern mutation we're all discussing. Let me offer a few reasons why...
1. It is actually describing what is taking place (including what Rich said about the ground color overshadowing the saddles more than them actually fading away).
2. It has the benefit of being a Greek name just as amel, anery, and hypo are.
3. No one could confuse it for any other morph/appearance, because no one would associate it with anything other than what we say it is.
Just an idea to throw out there ...
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03-31-2004, 01:16 PM
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#90
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Darin - Nice choice! I could live with that. And it could just be "epi" for short, which would make it easy on the tongue (like amel, anery, and hypo) without it being confused with anything else.
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