Change from frozen to live

I agree, Edsta. And the dialog such as "that's how Jeffery Dahmer started" is probably a bit much. But in every case, I assure you the members here are more concerned with the animals and their welfare than anything else. And isn't that what this is all about? And couldn't the same be said for our dogs and cats that eat meat protein?

Originally Posted by the_edsta

It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.

This is the perspective I've had all along. The castigators are actually always the same people.

At this point I'm only gonna feed p/k because my snake is a smaller type of corn and he struggles to kill adult mice. I also feel pretty remorseful because of this -- in the wild, snakes might lunge at prey, then they figure out its too big for them so they leave it alone. They are very good at quickly differentiating between prey/predator and they are hardwired to look out for their own safety.
So when I put a live adult in there and the snake decides to let it go because he can't kill it, its actually extremely stressful for my snake to be trapped with something that he fears. Snakes are ninjas... if they lose the stealth advantage, they will retreat.
Snake isn't concerned with putting on a show in a gladiator arena -- he's concerned with staying alive! And if the prey isn't smoothly and easily killed, snake's gonna get the hell out of there.
And in the spirit of common sense.... why risk the safety of your pet when there's no rational reason to feed live?
Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.

I'm just going to offer this - I feed my dog a raw diet. Does that mean I keep a dog just for the sole pleasure of watching him consume raw meat? No. I feed him that because it is healthy, safe, and actually cheaper than buying kibble every month. Does that make me immoral and a hypocrite for saying (in my opinion) it's healthier to feed snakes f/t? I don't keep snakes to watch them eat. I keep them because they are beautiful animals and great pets and family members, just as any of my other pets. They just happen to eat mice. Because I want what I feel is best for my pets, I feed f/t.

Just to clarify, that was in regards to the_edsta's post. I agree with all of the aforementioned reasons for feeding f/t over live.

Originally Posted by 7legion77

This is the perspective I've had all along. The castigators are actually always the same people.

At this point I'm only gonna feed p/k because my snake is a smaller type of corn and he struggles to kill adult mice. I also feel pretty remorseful because of this -- in the wild, snakes might lunge at prey, then they figure out its too big for them so they leave it alone. They are very good at quickly differentiating between prey/predator and they are hardwired to look out for their own safety.
So when I put a live adult in there and the snake decides to let it go because he can't kill it, its actually extremely stressful for my snake to be trapped with something that he fears. Snakes are ninjas... if they lose the stealth advantage, they will retreat.
Snake isn't concerned with putting on a show in a gladiator arena -- he's concerned with staying alive! And if the prey isn't smoothly and easily killed, snake's gonna get the hell out of there.
And in the spirit of common sense.... why risk the safety of your pet when there's no rational reason to feed live?
Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.

School of hard knocks eh? Better you learned before something very bad happened.

Originally Posted by DragonsDenSerpents

I'm just going to offer this - I feed my dog a raw diet. Does that mean I keep a dog just for the sole pleasure of watching him consume raw meat? No. I feed him that because it is healthy, safe, and actually cheaper than buying kibble every month. Does that make me immoral and a hypocrite for saying (in my opinion) it's healthier to feed snakes f/t? I don't keep snakes to watch them eat. I keep them because they are beautiful animals and great pets and family members, just as any of my other pets. They just happen to eat mice. Because I want what I feel is best for my pets, I feed f/t.

And feeding raw for your dog is a lot different than throwing a live rabbit in his crate with him to kill and eat.

Originally Posted by hypnoctopus

And feeding raw for your dog is a lot different than throwing a live rabbit in his crate with him to kill and eat.

This is definitely true, though I'm often met with the same attitude: "do you just like watching your dog eat raw meat." He eats f/t just like the snakes.

Originally Posted by 7legion77

Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.

I'm really happy to hear that.

My point was really about the rhetoric around the whole thing. I'm all for a debate about good husbandry, but when it suddenly turns into 'these people aren't human' and 'this practice is evil/cruel and INTENT (how does one judge intent?) on doing harm, have you no heart?' etc, the conversation has devolved into ad hominem attacks (not unlike referring to a well thought out post as 'pointy headed overeducated blather'). There is no reason one cannot discuss good practice without putting oneself on a moral high ground. And as life proves to use, sometimes the people who are most righteous in their fervor are the ones getting away with the most.

I concur. It gets a little old. OTOH, why _do_ people enjoy seeing an animal suffer, when there is an easy alternative? I don't know the answer to that.