How can we agree?

OK here goes.

A week or two ago I conversed with Rich on Kingsnakes.com, I suggested somone buck up and produce a picture book that best described all know morphs of corns. I agree with him that it would take time and would probably be out of date at production, but lets face it, I cant stand looking at some people's stock and have them tell me this is such and such. I dont have enough high quality stock to do it, but some of you do. If you guys could agree on a picture perfect example and maybe some B and C,D,F grades a lot more people would be honest. It is so hard to judge a juvenile that an accurate representation from the founding stock is necessary these days. I personaly try to have at least good quality pics of the parents with me at an exbo ( the little ones we have here in New Mexico ) if not the parents themselves. Most of the people I sell to like to see the lineage and appreciate looking at what I work with. I also breed two kinds of dogs, pitbulls and staffordshire terriers. My puppies start at $1000.00 and go to $1500.00 and I sure as hell wouldn't tell someone that they couldn't look at my dogs before buying a puppy. I know that most cornsnakes dont range there but Rich has some lavs for $500 and up. I think if he finds something new the price could be in the thousands and rightly so, but once again it brings us to the question of what is worth $500 and what is only worth $50 or $5. Let me hear everyones opinion.

Are you sure it was Rich Z., AKA [BLEEP] on KS???

Originally posted by oreo
If you guys could agree on a picture perfect example and maybe some B and C,D,F grades a lot more people would be honest.

One of the problems with grading them is that right now some of the names are applied to a specific genetic combo. The difference between any normal cornsnake and any snow cornsnake is only two genes. IMO it wouldn't be reasonable to grade snows because they either are or are not expressing amel and anery. Some people prefer the plain pink and white ones, others prefer the more colorful snows.

A lot of other names are just something an individual slapped on a deli cup because people will be more likely to buy them.

I could see a standard for long-standing and widely-known names like Candycane, Sunglow, Okeetee and Miami. But that would only make a little folding pamphlet, not a book.

I agree with Serp. It really comes down to 1) the fact that no two corns are going to be the same, and 2) my B grade may be your F grade. Everyone has an opinion on what is "nice"....

I think Orea is onto something. There is definitely a need for a new cornsnake book. I bet Kathy Love could produce a 2nd Edition with much more ease than someone producing a new book from scratch. Although it is still a difficult task that requires a lot of time, which she may not want to devote. Who ever is up for the challenge would need access to a large number of corns but it could be worth it. How about it Rich? I would buy one, along with countless numbers of others....it could be a gold mine waiting to happen. Maybe some of the top dealers are waiting one last new morph to be produced before beginning the project. WHO KNOWS!?!

PS....i won't go on about grading corns other than agreeing with what Serp said.

OK here is the real problem, yes your "B" grade could be a "F" grade to some one else or my whatever could be whatever to yours but there isn't any way one of us would know at this point due to a lack of info and standards. Like I said about my dogs, I try to breed for conformity to set standard. Puppies are hard to tell just how great they can be but we can judge from parents conformity to the breed standard. These standards have changed throughout the years in the bull breed dogs just due to a judge's lack of actual knowledge. I dont think we have that problem in snakes as we are not judging bone, scale and size structure. It's more of an issue with coloration and pattern or the lack thereof. Yes there can be a lot of variation, we can however lay a standard to what could be called something. I also agree with serp on the fact that some names are based on genetics. Doesn't anyone think that just because the guy down the street bred an emori to an E.g.g. he can call it a creamsicle even though its ugly, yes he can but if he had a standard to work for he might be inclined to work a little harder at selecting future stock form his offspring. I believe Rich and Kathy allready do this. They also happen to be the top breeders (not saying there isnt more like Don) but most of us are just trying to emulate their results. They should be the judge of what is a bloodred or a butter or whatever. I just dont want to have to argue with someone when I purchase something that isnt worth the money because they dont know any better.

Originally posted by CAV
Are you sure it was Rich Z., AKA [BLEEP] on KS???

Kingsnakes.com is Rich Zs site for King & Milk snakes.

With a new edition of the CSM in the works that should cover most of the newer animals. I don't believe you will ever be able to put a grade on most. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Blizzards are a good example. I like the ones with some yellow and others want a pure white animal. Who gets to judge and say one is better then another

Kingsnakes.com is Rich Zs site for King & Milk snakes

Shows what I know!

While I agree that Rich, Kathy, Don and others are qualified to set standards, I don't know that I want someone else telling me what is the "gold" standard. Part of the fun and challange of breeding these animals is to produce something you like or find attractive.

If you don't want someone telling you what the gold standard is, then why try to sell something that is not up to the name representing it. If you dont agree on it sell it as a spinoff of that name. Alot of us allready do sell stuff not quite as good or named something different. I just pointing out that the guy who might be selling the pitbull down the street without papers shouldn't get what my triple registered dogs or my single registered dogs bring. Why? Because that person isn't striving for the "standards" I do. His dog might be beautiful but it doesn't mean he can call his black dog with a hue of grey "BLUE" when my dogs are actually the proper color silver blue that represents that term, hence why I try to purchase the best I can to produce the best offspring. Wether it be snake or dog, if I deem it a substandard animal my price reflects it. I can accept the fact that everything cannot be perfect all the time and price it accordingly.