110F Basking Temp for Corn snakes

[wildheart]

Good morning from South Africa. :wavey:

I own a reptile and parrots forum and most of our members own iguanas. I am not here to gain any members, all I want is your knowledge. Just thought it is important to say it so you guys know I am sincere.

I dont know if you are aware of some forums who are experimenting with reptile husbandry? They are changing up all the basics with total disregard to years and years of scientific evidence proving that what they are doing will cause harm in the long run. They are calling it myths that they have to set straight.

To me it is experimenting with an animal's life.

Examples of this is feeding meet to iguanas. Keeping iguanas on bio-active substrate never cleaning and never taking them out. Keeping bearded dragons at temps as high as 135 to 160F and not supplying UVB only vit. D3 in powder form. The latest is now that they keep their Corn Snakes with basking temps of 110F. These guys are trolling my forum causing so much frustration and anger and they refuse to learn and say that they only do what other members and breeders do and choose to not look at history. History = Myths.

I decided to join here to ask your why do you say to avoid temperatures above 90F?

Q: What are good temperatures?
A: 75-80F for the 'cool' side, and 80-85F for the warm side. Try to avoid temperatures below 70F and above 90F.

I have my reasons of why, but what is your reasons, what will happen to a snake kept at those temps? The evidence that I supply is from Reptile medical books but as I said before they only follow breeders and members, people with degrees know nothing.

I will quote your answers on my forum and I can pm a link to one of the staff if you want to see that I am not changing any answers.

Why am I doing this? Because animals means everything in my life and I will fight for their health and safekeeping to the ends of the world.

 

[bitsy]

The 90 degree upper boundary is usually seen as the point that you risk neurological damage in the Corn *if* the snake can't get away from it. So for example, a warm end of the tank which is uniformly 110 would be potentially dangerous - the snake either won't use it and therefore won't thermoregulate, or will use it regardless and potentially risk harm. Their behaviour does change when they get too hot - they become agitated and antsy and can go off their food. It doesn't *seem* beneficial.

However I'm pretty sure that some folks here (including Kathy Love if I'm remembering her book) can and do provide very localised basking spots which are over 90 degrees. I'm not sure we've had any feedback on how often Corns actually use them, but I think the key is that they're localised. The snake can get out of that high spot and still find an area outside it which is still in the lower "heated-but-safe" mid-80s to thermoregulate.

With most domestic-sized tanks, it's quite difficult to provide this kind of localised high heat effect, without bumping up the temp of the warm end as a knock-on effect. In a three foot viv, received wisdom is that one-third of it should be heated to the mid-80s at floor level (although that's being debated now as well), with two-thirds unheated. Even with that setup, the general observation is that the Corns spend the majority of their time in the cool zone - mine certainly do.

A personal experience with mine involves two, three foot high custom-made vivs, with different levels inside them. I heated the floor with a traditional UTH+thermostat setup and had a spotlight on the uppermost shelves to heat them. It wasn't until I switched the spotlights off, that the snakes started using the upper levels. Whether it was the light or the concentrated heat which deterred them, I'm not sure. But they've been using the upper levels - unheated - for years now.

So overall, I'd say if you have the room to try a localised basking spot which doesn't impact the overall warm end temp, then it might be worth giving it a whirl. It would be interesting to hear whether the snakes use it - in my experience they won't but that's not to say this will be a universal thing. I wouldn't recommend keeping a Corn in a warm end which doesn't drop below 110, for the reasons stated above.

I tend to agree that we as a community can be very conservative with our advice and maybe having this challenged occasionally isn't a bad thing in principle. There have recently been very lively debates on this board about the significance of ambient temperatures in the tank and the use of UV. However, our advice is based on many years of combined husbandry experience at both amateur and professional levels. We're conservative with our advice because this is what has worked best for the majority of people. Not because we're old stick-in-the-muds who insist on doing what our grandpappys taught us. When people start "experimenting" in ways which are potentially harmful to the snakes, then that's a step too far for me.

ETA: Thinking about it, one of my concerns would be whether the experimenters are willing to report back on failed husbandry experiments. If people keep Corns at above their accepted "safe" temp range, against strongly voiced advice, what happens if the Corns suffer harm or even die? Will the experimenters bother coming back and telling anyone? It's only a valid trial if it's unbiased and results are reported in an unbiased way.

 

[airenlow]

This is an interesting read...
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122237

 

[captainjack0000]

75-80F for the 'cool' side, and 80-85F for the warm side. Try to avoid temperatures below 70F and above 90F

Also you can look at the natural range of corns. I live in Florida, and corns are active about 9-10 months of the year here. In those active periods, the general temperature ranges between 70F and 95F. You will find corns farther north, but they'll brumate for the N. hemisphere winters.

For example, we're coming out our winter around now. The high today is 70F. Even though surface temps might be higher on a sunny say, the ambient air temp never gets over 110F. I would even venture to say 100F is rare.

My point is why subject a snake to temperatures they won't encounter in the wild?

 

[captainjack0000]

My temps given the 70F-95F are day temps. A corn snake certainly can survive temps below 70F, but not constantly. The snake should always have a warm spot to visit if it so chooses.

Also, if these people are trolling your forum, can you warn them or block them? I mean, if they're just posting this information to cause trouble, and they're not serious, then can you remove them?

Google translate don't fail me now....Welkom by ons forum

 

[Chip]

For example, we're coming out our winter around now. The high today is 70F. Even though surface temps might be higher on a sunny say, the ambient air temp never gets over 110F. I would even venture to say 100F is rare.

My point is why subject a snake to temperatures they won't encounter in the wild?

You wouldn't be. The temperature of a reptile hot spot isn't ambient air. Take an infrared thermometer outside with you sometime, you'll be surprised at how piping hot a surface a snake is basking on can be.

 

[captainjack0000]

I am aware of hot surface temps can reach. I'm not getting into the surface temp vs ambient air temp discussion again. I was just trying to make a case for the OP about why a 110F basking temp isn't a good idea. And my point still stands, I highly doubt any wild corn snake would ever encounter 110F+ ambient air as one would get from a basking light.

Secondly, those snakes in the wild have the option to move to cooler areas, an option a captive snake may not have, as per the description of the OP.

 

[captainjack0000]

Excuse me, the OP does not mention the source of the heat, but askes why we don't go over 90F.

I think Bitsy covered most of it, but I think my 'what they find in the wild' reasoning would still be a good argument.

 

[poison123]

Hello guys i am one of the people that the op is talking about. I would like to say that what she failed to mention is my corn has options to bask at much lower temps

This can be achieved with low wattage house/flood light with a risen surface. In my case i am using several inches of bio-active substrate. The reason you wanna use these bulbs is they put off a wide beam which allows the snakes to choose there own temps. And they don't cause the ambient temp to rise like a high wattage bulb would to achieve this temp from a distance.

 

[poison123]

As you can see he is clearly using his high temps.

 

[Nanci]

For example, we're coming out our winter around now. The high today is 70F. Even though surface temps might be higher on a sunny say, the ambient air temp never gets over 110F. I would even venture to say 100F is rare.

My point is why subject a snake to temperatures they won't encounter in the wild?

This is true, but I have measured ground temp in the sun, on short grass in my tortoise pen, at 130F. It's too hot to touch, though, and I don't believe any animal would be basking in that...

 

[captainjack0000]

This reminds me of the old hallway sized tank thought experiment.

Supposing I had a 10 foot tank and at one end the highest possible temp, surface or air or whatever you please is 122F. Now, for every foot down the tank you drop the temp 10F degrees.

1-122
2-112
3-102
4-92
5-82
6-72
7-62
8-52
9-42
10-32F (freezing)

So in this set up, my hot side is 120F and my cool side is 32F.

Is this a problem? I don't see it being one, except your heating cooling large amounts of real estate for no reason.

I think one of the main reasons people keep their animals in the 70F-90F range is simply because years of experience have shown those temperatures work. For example, during the day when my house is in the upper 70s or lower 80s, they stick to the cool side. When the house gets much below 75F, the seek out their warm side which is usually in the upper 70s or low 80s. Since my corns have shown a preference for 75F-85F temps, that is what I try to provide for them.

 

[Nanci]

It would sure be cool to observe them in that, though!

 

[KPerron]

Hi! I'm new here and I have been spending all day posting to forums (or waiting to verification to be able to post) to help me figure out how to get my hot spot to be lower than 92 with my UTH and now I find this thread and I'm so confused now! Just thought I should share! I love finding info online but the conflict information can be overwhelming.

 

[poison123]

Hi! I'm new here and I have been spending all day posting to forums (or waiting to verification to be able to post) to help me figure out how to get my hot spot to be lower than 92 with my UTH and now I find this thread and I'm so confused now! Just thought I should share! I love finding info online but the conflict information can be overwhelming.

I dont,t suggest you try something like this unless you know why your doing it. Im doing it to provide my snake with options. And i believe snakes would rather warm up faster and go on about there business.

 

[Chip]

I am aware of hot surface temps can reach. I'm not getting into the surface temp vs ambient air temp discussion again.

Well, you brought it up!

I was just trying to make a case for the OP about why a 110F basking temp isn't a good idea. And my point still stands, I highly doubt any wild corn snake would ever encounter 110F+ ambient air as one would get from a basking light.

What we have here is a failure to communicate! The ambient air isn't 110+, the surface is. And wild corns sure can, do and will encounter that.

Secondly, those snakes in the wild have the option to move to cooler areas, an option a captive snake may not have, as per the description of the OP.

Your snake had BETTER have the option to move to a cooler area no matter what you choose for a basking temp!

Excuse me, the OP does not mention the source of the heat, but askes why we don't go over 90F.

I think Bitsy covered most of it, but I think my 'what they find in the wild' reasoning would still be a good argument.

Except you are calling surface temp air again. :spinner:

 

[captainjack0000]

ambient air isn't 110+, the surface is. And wild corns sure can, do and will encounter that.

Yes and a corn snake may encounter a hawk in the wild too. It doesn't mean he wants to.

I guess the real question is: Would a snake in the wild voluntarily use surface temps 100F+?

And if so, what are the environmental conditions that would warrant such use?

 

[Chip]

Yes. At least on *part* of their body they will. I've seen wild water snakes throw a coil over a supremely hot surface (150+) in the sun for a minute, move it a few inches, then dip back under water many times. I have caught many corn snakes on hot roads after a rain and quick temperature drop. Snakes can be collected under tin so hot that they don't even feel cool to the touch like our captives do. All this said, I don't know the actual answer to a surface temperature that would be uncomfortable no matter how big a mouse in the tummy, etc. Or if basking a spot is just a way to raise the core temperature. It's not as if they are thinking about it! As we tag these indigo snakes, we should insert thermometers into the microchips! Some college student needs to make this a thesis study. It doesn't seem like too difficult or expensive a thing to document in 2013. Caged specimens indicate that they sometimes like it warmer than the ol' care sheet says when they have the option, though.

 

[wildheart]

Thank you all for your answers.

Living in South Africa with high temps almost the whole year and reptiles outside in the garden I know that the service temps do go up very high, however they also drop the moment there are clouds, it gets later etc. In captivity it is different, the heat supplied stay constant and the snake has to endure a 110F every single day for 12 hours long which it will never encounter in the wild.

As you can see he is clearly using his high temps.

My biggest problem is that you advised a basking temp of 110F to a user with a sick snake, you have never seen the cage it is kept in either. For all you know the snake lives in a tub with holes for air. That is very irresponsible to do and if the owner listened her snake can die.

A photo showing 103F isn't good enough, I can show you photos of my iguana being 119F while outside. What I asked for is a video showing your snake basking at 110F with body temps that high and staying there.

Snakes are meant to digest their food at a slow rate, that is the way they are created and remained through thousands of years.

 

[wildheart]

Hi! I'm new here and I have been spending all day posting to forums (or waiting to verification to be able to post) to help me figure out how to get my hot spot to be lower than 92 with my UTH and now I find this thread and I'm so confused now! Just thought I should share! I love finding info online but the conflict information can be overwhelming.

You need to buy a thermostat or a dimmer to control the temperatures, thermostat is better but more expensive.