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A call to the Black Guys

Thread revive but ok.
My experience with black people and reptiles in general has been varied. For the most part, they either take no interest in it or express fear, particularly when I mention the snakes. However, my boyfriend, who is black/puerto rican, takes a neutral stance on snakes (as in he doesn't dislike them and he doesn't really see what I do in them, either), he thinks geckos are adorable, and he LOVES spiders. So I dunno, as with everything you have to go on an individual basis. I see a lot of hispanics in the hobby, but then I see a lot of hispanics in general. Likewise, I don't see many people of asian descent, but then I don't see many of them in general either.
 
You know... My daughters grandma is philipino.. She freaked out when she found out we had snakes.. She told my daughter that the snake would go up her butt in the middle of the night and that they are the devil... But that was all spurred by her religious beliefs..

Oh how did i miss this tidbit of forum treasure :rofl:
 
I think its much more rudimentary than all this. When you think about it, all the large, man eating or at least extremely poisons snakes are indigenous to area's where people of color are also indigenous to. It's just a built in fear/dislike, a survival instinct.

Thats why so many people here are Irish...there are no snakes in Ireland, they have no genetically built in fear.

*the luck of the Irish*
If we were talking about cultural differences being passed on, I would probably agree. But to say that it's hereditary, or to refer to the fear as somehow indigenous people being afraid, it just seems borderline to me.. and by borderline, I mean offensive. I really don't like any differences that occur between groups of people to be attributed to genetics. We're all the same, except for the environments we grew up in. I know some people who are black that love all animals, some that don't. The same goes for white people. In fact, I've met so many people that are afraid of snakes that I feel like snakes are equally the subject of dislike by every race.

I personally feel like it's more to do with cultures and even socioeconomic backgrounds. You would have to figure that the more expensive sports/hobbies such as Golf are less frequently played by minorities, so I would say that a fairly expensive hobby such as reptile keeping would be similar. Also, you have to look at where a majority of minorities live in America, and that's for the most part in major cities. I would say that people who live in cities are far less likely to have pets, especially ones that are fairly exotic, like snakes, lizards, etc... as well as the fact that people who like reptiles usually do so because they have been exposed to them from a young age. Cities usually don't offer that exposure.

Just my $0.2!!!
 
Ok i haven't completely read this whole thread, but to speak for my self as a latino most of my family is very afraid of reptiles and im considered a bit of an odd ball, for loving this animals and the hobby as much as i do, but i do have many latino and black friends that share my love for the hobby and some that i have turned into fans of the hobby by inviting them to shows, to see my collection, to hold my more docile snakes and to show them a diffrent side of the animals, some never change some become more understanding or become fans....lol.... But i have to agree wit some of the posters, in the fact that u will see a greater num of the minority population that is into herps, depending on where u live. Here in Orlando i know and have met a lot of black and latino herp lovers......so i guess it does depend on where u live 2.
 
If we were talking about cultural differences being passed on, I would probably agree. But to say that it's hereditary, or to refer to the fear as somehow indigenous people being afraid, it just seems borderline to me.. and by borderline, I mean offensive. I really don't like any differences that occur between groups of people to be attributed to genetics. We're all the same, except for the environments we grew up in. I know some people who are black that love all animals, some that don't. The same goes for white people. In fact, I've met so many people that are afraid of snakes that I feel like snakes are equally the subject of dislike by every race.

I personally feel like it's more to do with cultures and even socioeconomic backgrounds. You would have to figure that the more expensive sports/hobbies such as Golf are less frequently played by minorities, so I would say that a fairly expensive hobby such as reptile keeping would be similar. Also, you have to look at where a majority of minorities live in America, and that's for the most part in major cities. I would say that people who live in cities are far less likely to have pets, especially ones that are fairly exotic, like snakes, lizards, etc... as well as the fact that people who like reptiles usually do so because they have been exposed to them from a young age. Cities usually don't offer that exposure.

Just my $0.2!!!
i have to agree wit u mike, to say that u inherited ur fear for certain animals is almost crossing the line......i have met about the same level of dislike or fear across the board of races when it comes to snakes and herps in general. It also has alot to do wit exposure to the hobby and yes there are some cultural/religious diff that influence these fears but this is not always the case.
 
Culture probably plays a big role. So do genetics but not RACE RELATED genetics. If your great great grandfather died of a venomous snake bite, his wife told all her kids snakes were evil. Some of them believed it & told their kids. Some of those kids believed it. And so on. If your great greats come from a culture where death from venomous snake bite is common, they really believed it and strongly said so, and taught their kids likewise. That's the culture part.

The gene part is that some people seem to be prewired to feel the common phobias (spiders, heights, snakes) really strongly. Those genes don't seem to associate by races, though. My mother didn't come from a cultural background that emphasized snake fear. Her mother, at least, wasn't bothered at all by snakes. I dunno about her father, he died before I was born so I didn't know him. But she had several common phobias, and snakes were one of them. The sight of a snake, even a harmless garter or rough green, could reduce this otherwise rational woman to hysterics.
 
The gene part is that some people seem to be prewired to feel the common phobias (spiders, heights, snakes) really strongly. Those genes don't seem to associate by races, though.

They can't. That's because what we refer to as "races" in humans do not map onto genetically distinct lineages of humans. What we refer to as "races" in humans map onto variation in melanin production, and many genetic lineages of humans share the same skin color/eye color/hair color as a result of local, population-level adaptation to environmental conditions (convergent evolution). Though the concept of biological race is not entirely un-useful when talking about humans (just as it is not un-useful when talking about bees and citrus plants), the way that it is commonly used bears no correspondence to its biological meaning, and is therefore useless as a biological concept for humans as it is currently used, because it bears no commonality with real biological distinctions.

In any case, fear (but not skin color) is largely learned. If it weren't, our captive-bred snakes would be just as skittish as their wild counterparts, but they are not. Rural Malagasy children are afraid of white people, not because white people have ever terrorized their ancestors, but because they haven't seen white people before. Right-wing Christians are afraid of gay people, not because gay people have been predators of their ancestors for generations, but because they are taught to be afraid of gay people.

Cultural continuity maps much better onto people's fears than does genetic continuity, and thus is a much more parsimonious explanation for them.
 
I think its much more rudimentary than all this. When you think about it, all the large, man eating or at least extremely poisons snakes are indigenous to area's where people of color are also indigenous to.
Also, the Inuit and all of their close relatives are brown. Which snakes live with them?
 
They can't. That's because what we refer to as "races" in humans do not map onto genetically distinct lineages of humans. What we refer to as "races" in humans map onto variation in melanin production, and many genetic lineages of humans share the same skin color/eye color/hair color as a result of local, population-level adaptation to environmental conditions (convergent evolution). Though the concept of biological race is not entirely un-useful when talking about humans (just as it is not un-useful when talking about bees and citrus plants), the way that it is commonly used bears no correspondence to its biological meaning, and is therefore useless as a biological concept for humans as it is currently used, because it bears no commonality with real biological distinctions.

Well, there are some genes that map onto "races". The Pima tribe of the southwestern US are at super high risk for diabetes, and that maps exactly and is thought to be genetic. Sickle cell anemia tracks with people with African ancestry. Hemochromatosis is much more frequent in people with northern European ancestry. Tay-Sachs disease is much more common in people with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. I just don't see any evidence that a specific phobia is carried in genes that track with where people's ancestors are from. The connections between genes & behaviors are difficult to make in the first place, and they seem to be lineage specific, like the separated identical twins who wind up being fire fighters, rather than race specific.
 
LOL. I don't know how I missed this thread... probably because Wade started it on my birthday...

I'm Filipino... or as Misery said, "Fil-Am". My parents were born in the Philippines (Dad was born an American Citizen), I was born in El Paso, Texas. I completely think of myself as "American".

Like some of the others have mentioned, in my "race" I'm the oddball. None of my cousins, brothers, aunts, uncles and even my parents like the fact that I have snakes. They all think I'm crazy.

HOWEVER, my "niece-in-law" and my kids are learning to "like/respect" my pets. My youngest daughter's eyes light up whenever it is feeding day 'cause she's right there helping out in the middle of it all. So, I'm hoping that I'm making some "dent" in the lack of minority participation in our hobby... but they're half Filipino/half Caucasian... so I'm only being "half" as effective. :laugh01:

All of my black friends are "fascinated" by my pets and are willing to sit down and watch me care for them. BUT, each and every one of them has said, "Absolutely NOT!!" when it came to having a snake of their own. LOL. IDK!!!??? :shrugs::confused:
 
BTW, I'm glad to see that there's a Filipina on the forum (Misery). But she hasn't been on since early July... :(

I think that there is one other... but I haven't seen him on in about a year...
 
They can't. That's because what we refer to as "races" in humans do not map onto genetically distinct lineages of humans. . . . Though the concept of biological race is not entirely un-useful when talking about humans (just as it is not un-useful when talking about bees and citrus plants), the way that it is commonly used bears no correspondence to its biological meaning, and is therefore useless as a biological concept for humans as it is currently used, because it bears no commonality with real biological distinctions.

Well, there are some genes that map onto "races". The Pima tribe of the southwestern US are at super high risk for diabetes, and that maps exactly and is thought to be genetic. Sickle cell anemia tracks with people with African ancestry. Hemochromatosis is much more frequent in people with northern European ancestry. Tay-Sachs disease is much more common in people with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. I just don't see any evidence that a specific phobia is carried in genes that track with where people's ancestors are from. The connections between genes & behaviors are difficult to make in the first place, and they seem to be lineage specific, like the separated identical twins who wind up being fire fighters, rather than race specific.

In contesting my point, you've actually made it for me. I recognize that the medical field still holds onto what is useful about recognizing humans with distinct historical lineages, and that's important, but the medical field simply doesn't use the word "race" to mean what it actually means in the other biological fields. It's a historical artifact, really, of medical nomenclature. It's the same in forensics.

The examples you give of genes that occur in high frequencies within particular human lineages are indeed due to their common ancestry. Lineages = as you say, where your ancestors are from. But these lineages don't map onto either the biological definition of race or our culturally dictated ones. Lineages are much smaller than biological races, which are roughly defined as relatively isolated breeding populations that share morphological characteristics at higher frequencies than are found in the species at large. You have to be able to look at something, and measure its morphological characteristics, and reliably sort it into its correct breeding population or "race." You can do it with races of bees, and with races of citrus. Some people put a number on how high the degree of breeding isolation has to be (or the genetic distance between races) as quantified by genetic distance markers (none of which are met by genetic distances among any major populations of humans). Individual lineages do indeed share genetic material. The Ashkenazi Jews, Cajuns, and French Canadians all have high proportions of Tay-Sachs (neither the Cajuns nor the French Canadians apparently inherited it from any purported Ashkenazi Jewish ancestors, but from separate mutations in their own, separate, small founder populations). But, no biologist would ever designate the Ashkenazi Jews (these days), the Cajuns, or the French Canadians as biological races of humans. Would you? Do you think the French Canadians are a biological race? Similarly, people of African descent do indeed have high rates of sickle-cell anemia. But the biological definition of race requires that some defining morphological characteristics of races must reliably distinguish members of those separate breeding populations. Have you ever seen a native Kenyan, an Ethiopian, and a Khoisan of South Africa? You would not confuse them if you had--you would definitely not assign them into the same breeding populations of "African descent" unless your conception of race was a simplistic and biologically meaningless "black/white." Other side of the coin, can you distinguish a unclothed Pima from an unclothed Navajo? I bet you can't. I can't. And no biologist would describe them as races, either. Heck, I had an old man talk to me about my tattoo in the grocery store the other day and at first I just thought he was a crazy old Phoenician from nowhere special at all. Turns out he was a Hopi, and he wanted to talk to me about my turtle tattoo, because turtles and tortoises are very important in Hopi origin stories (as they are in the origin stories of most Native American tribes). Lineages are much smaller than biological races, and biological races according to the definitions that we use to designate them within non-human species don't seem to exist in human populations. Some species have them, some species don't. We don't. That doesn't mean that the concept of biological race can't apply to humans, but we don't seem to have them, and probably haven't had them for a very, very long time. Indeed, we don't have as much genetic isolation of populations as some of us would like to think, and the amount of genetic variation between populations is much smaller than the amount of genetic variation within them. On the other hand, the popular and historical conception of "race" encompasses HUGE groups of people. You've never seen a government form with checkboxes for: Pima, Cajun, Ashkenazi Jew, French Canadian, Northern European. You never will. No biologist would ever consider them races and neither would any Joe Schmoe on the street. And, to bring it back to the point of the latest posts, this thread had become about the definition of race used by Joe Schmoe on the street (i.e., Wade, the OP, who used "Black," and Kuzco, who suggested that "people of color" have an inbred--that is, genetically based--fear of snakes). And as far as using Joe Schmoe-type race classifications to infer biological relatedness, or breeding populations, or anything close to resembling a historical biological reality of one group of people as distinct from the historical biological realities of other groups . . .

Well, ain't no way, no how.
 
Sadly I haven't keep up with this thread but after reading your remarks I have to say you've made a common mistake of taking my comment seriously. I had hoped my sarcasm was thick enough to be understood for what it was.
 
oh man, a few people took me seriously.... Um, yea for the record I don't think genetics plays any part in this, but id agree culture does.

expect for the Irish bit.... that parts true (<----sarcasm)
 
I am of mixed ethnic background, with a Christian European mother (who had a Jewish Europena father) and a West African father. My parents always taught me to respect all living creatures and I never learned to hate or fear any animal. I know I would have trouble letting a spider or any insect crawl on me, but it is more by fear of it going where I do not want it to be. When I told them I got a snake they were surprised, but not shocked. My Dad was actually kind of proud because in his traditional culture non-venemous snakes are very respected and even have a "house" dedicated to them in one city where wild snakes get taken care of (they would easily be able to leave as the house has no door and the snakes can access a garden and trees that connect to trees outside their "house") and people come to ask them to pass on a message to God. They are considered to be great spiritual messengers and good to have around or in your house. Interestingly, most African Americans come from that same area of Africa, and people in Brazil, Cuba and even part of Louisiana still have kept some of the culture of respect for non-venemous snakes. It seems, however, that in most of North America that part of the West African Yoruban, Fon and Egun cultures did not survive as well.
 
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