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A much needed rant

E

Eavlynn

New member
Okay so I'm a biology student, and I work with a reptile breeder. I love what I do and I have a passion for all living creatures, except stink bugs and mosquitoes and such. Working with the breeder means assisting with vending different reptile shows. It's great getting to work with such beautiful animals and educating individuals. There's nothing better than being there when someone conquers their fear and handles their first snake. But I also find myself incredibly frustrated at shows. Every other individual that walks up to the table thinks they are going to buy some snakes, breed them, and strike it rich! They ask how to house them, what to breed them to, what they eat...son, if you don't already know the answers to these questions, you shouldn't even consider breeding! Or the family thats too cheap to buy another enclosure, and asks how many snakes they can house in their 20 gallon tank? Needless to say i did not sell them anything from our table. And then someone walks up to the table and says something along the lines of "I could never own a snake, they are evil, I'd just kill it". ...okay, Wtf are you doing here?? If I didn't like dogs and went to an adoption fair saying crap like that, I'd get beaten to death and back! Reptiles are no less important than Fluffy the chihuahua! This happens at every single show. It makes me sick. Unfortunately some of the vendors at shows aren't much better. I walk around and see imports in horrid condition, flippers with snakes and other reptiles on their table that they know nothing about. I was browsing some beautiful boas when I saw two neonate snows with infected eyes, oozing fluid, and an almost completely retained shed. And the guy wouldn't take them off the table! I have never been so close to punching someone's teeth down their throat in my entire life! Those poor little babies deserved so much more than what they were given. All people see are dollar signs. I listen to the man I work for talk about how shows used to be 20+ years ago. Breeders cared for their animals, and knew every detail about every snake on the table. Customers walking around were more educated and left the breeding to the professionals, looking only for their next beloved pet. And it was rare to hear negative comments about the animals. I don't think I'll ever know what it's like to vend a show and leave feeling happy and proud of what we do.

If it wasn't for this forum, I would lose my mind. When I feel like I have no faith in humanity, I hop online and look at all the sweet snakes and lizards and geckos that are being properly cared for and loved by their owners. There's nothing better than hearing a repti-parent brag about their kids :) So, from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU, all of you, for being so wonderful. You have no idea just how rare individuals like you are in this world.
 
Thanks for every word of that, Eavlynn.

What's funny is that the information on how to properly care for them is more readily availabile than it was 20 years ago. I remember the Internet in 1996 and it wasn't pretty, lol. If you didn't do newsgroups, real info was difficult to come by (I did do newsgroups, BTW). Heck, I even remember Altavista!

I didn't have the knowledge when I got my first corn snake that comes from experience, but I had at the least read Don's book and had planned it for a year. And breeding? You shouldn't indiscriminately breed snakes any more than you should breed puppies or kittens! It is no different!

I do not understand the nastiness and negativity towards snakes. You are right, it simply would not be tolerated with dogs or cats. Neither would untreated, infected eyes. :(
 
Thank you Eavlynn, for both your wonderfully passionate post and your acknowledgment of the folks on this site. It's one of the reasons I choose to come here over Facebook and interact with few other forms of social media (LinkedIn for occupational purposes & Twitter to keep current, just to mention a couple).

However, when reflecting on your powerful descriptions of the depth of the ignorance and apathy of some of our fellow human beings, you actually make one of the most powerful arguments for the regulation and even criminalization of MOST components of our hobby, from breeding to simply owning certain types of pets! I am a libertarian who opposes most forms of regulation and one of the VERY few social workers you'll ever hear of that is AGAINST gun control, but when green iguanas were made illegal to own in NY State, I secretly applauded that law. Simply because I saw WAY TOO MUCH neglect, which is abuse & mistreatment done passively!! I would rather see an animal euthanized than to have to live as those cornsnake hatchlings you described at one of those reptile shows. When an issue makes you FEEL like committing physical violence against another person, then you KNOW a moral line has been crossed that can make you rethink your own values!

Thank you for sharing a provocative and somewhat controversial view while simultaneously acknowledging the importance of a forum with people as diverse as the melting pot its members are reflective of who share at least one thing in common, which is an undying love for cornsnakes!!!

Heavy, Far-Out, & Right-On!!! :crazy02:
 
Dolly - you are so right! Information is at our fingertips. In moments, we can find the answer to almost any question. Yet, for some reason, people still don't educate themselves. I really find that totally baffling. Then again, I'm the weirdo that spends my free time researching various topics for kicks.

The negativity towards reptiles will probably never go away. It's silly really. For example: some people love pet pigs. I'm not fond of pet pigs, but I don't seek to demean or chastise those with pet pigs. I respect their passion. When I see something I don't like or understand, I talk to someone that loves it so that I can learn more, and maybe develop a different perspective, so that I might learn to like it more. That's how my love for reptiles started actually haha

Axis - I believe animal abuse and neglect should definitely be a crime, regardless of the species. Individuals who knowingly harm animals should br prosecuted as harshly as those who would harm an innocent child, in my opinion. The hatchling snows at the show were actually boas. I find myself thinking about them quite often, and my heart breaks all over again each time I do.

As far as regulation goes, I'm all for regulation to make sure animals are properly cared for. And permits for certain species aren't a bad idea, but I don't like how controlling some states are with what citizens are allowed to own. Certain states all out ban boas, burmese pythons, retics, large lizards, etc and I have to disagree with that. Yes, there are individuals out there who abuse their rights, and neglect the animals. But on the flip side, there are a lot of great and responsible pet owners, who have a passion for those species, and take great care of them. And those responsible owners suffer for the mistakes of others. I think it would be great if permits were requires for such species, with mandatory wellness check ups. I think that could go a long way in improving the quality of life for some reptiles.

I'm not an necessarily an advocate for regulation, or deregulation, as I can understand the views from both ends. I do believe strongly in education, however. If people were properly educated, a lot of the abuse and neglect that we've all seen could be easily prevented. Sadly, education cannot instill morals and empathy into people who seem to lack those things. And nothing can be done to stop animal abuse all together. Human beings can be the kindest, most caring species on the planet. At the same time, they can be the cruelest and most destructive.

Trying to provide information often feels like speaking to a brick wall. I attempted to help a young man understand that housing an adult ball python with an adult garter snake was a tremendously bad idea. The young man informed me that he had been working with reptiles since he was 12, and there was nothing wrong with the situation. Sometimes you can't educate everyone, or save every animal, and that's a tough reality to face. I guess some people are just too stupid to understand the truth, and too close minded to listen to an opinion that differs from their own. I've met very few people with a lower level of intelligence than that young man.

All I can say is thank goodness for the forum. A safe place to share ideas, information, and photos of our lovely legged and legless companions.
 
Lol, Eavlynn. Researching for fun is not weird (says the person who read the encyclopedia for fun as a child).

Sadly, we are all judged by the bad apples among us. Every time some clown does something irresponsible it is fodder for the AR people and the rest of us and our animals pay the price. The thing is that laws only apply to law abiding citizens. It's not like there are cops sitting there in their cars with snake detectors pointed at our homes. Sadly, some of the laws aimed to curtail hoarding, neglect, and indiscriminate breeding do nothing but place undue burdens on the responsible. Laws when appropriate are often poorly crafted on emotion, not fact. In the end, it is community and peer pressure that work best at keeping animals safe and well cared for. It is also the rescuers, that are there for people who get in over their heads or whose life circumstances change, who are the safety valve. We need to destigamitize reliquishing properly, while encouraging thoughtful and educated acquisition. The rescuers are the angels among us. We need to encourage and support reptile rescue organizations and adoption (as I know you do).

Sadly, there will always be the recalcitrant, not to mention the scammers (just read the BOI if you want an education).

It was bad enough when I thought the snows were corn snakes, but baby boas? Seems those are more valuable (in terms of money) and it is not only morally irresponsible but financially irresponsible to neglect them. It just ticks me off. Accidents can happen even to those of us who are conscientious (says the "mother" of an escaped and lost snake-- yes, I'm still looking and still heartbroken over that), but blatant neglect and abuse anger me beyond words.

Sorry for my own mini rant there. It is said in support of you, Eavlynn.

Thank goodness for the forum, indeed!
 
This is a ranting zone, no need to apologize. All rants shall be accepted without fear of judgement. I had no idea you lost a snake, I'm sorry! I remember the panic I felt when my little Loki got out. I made traps, searched everywhere, and couldn't sleep until he was found. And I had a hoggie slip out once too, thankfully she's clumsy and a poor climber. We found her within an hour. I've seen stories where people have lost snakes and even geckos, and found them much later, so there is definitely still a chance that your baby will show up. I also read through encyclopedias as a child lol, focusing more on the sections relating to animals though. I swear I knew everything there was to know about cats when I was 10 [emoji24]

I know there are pros and cons to everything, even things put in place with the best of intentions. But it really bites having to see it so frequently, and feel so hopeless to change anything. I guess that's life though. You do the best that you can do, educate as many as you can, and hope for a positive outcome. All of the not so positive outcomes are the reason that I have a house full of rescues that have been pulled from some horrible situations, and my boyfriend and I take a good deal of heat from our families for it. There are no reptile rescues within 100 miles, so we now have 20 reptiles from snakes to lizards to geckos, the majority were rescues but not all. They are all on the mend, receiving proper care and vet treatment when they need it. I've grown quite fond of the quote "you can't change the world by rescuing one reptile, but you can change the world for that one reptile".

Speaking of the BOI, I hate looking at it. So much negativity. The number of scammers floating around out there is frightening! Some good people have negative posts on there too, which is unfortunate. It just takes one bad transaction, or a small mistake, and suddenly your name and reputation is being slaughtered. The man I work for has a very bad review on the BOI, but the guy who posted was a total tool, and not a good person. He made himself out to be a saint, of course, which is easy to do when you only give part of one half of a story.
 
I'm so sorry there isn't an organized rescue there. Maybe you can get one going and get 501.3c status. The one here is totally foster based, but since they are registered and have a board, they can take donations and have veterinary advisors, etc. In any case, you are one of those angels I talked about. I know Ruth agrees :) .

Yes, my precious little normal corn snake Dolly found that his lid was not as secure as I thought it was. That was 11 months ago and he was about 50 grams. I had him for 6.5 months. It was way too short when I was expecting a lifetime. It's probably why I take so many pics and post so much about the three I have now. I dearly regret not having more pictures of him and I have no videos. He was such a sweet little guy. The snakes I have now are just as precious, but each one is irreplaceable and so it is with Dolly. I discarded that lid and have more secure housing now. I may make a new mistake. but won't make the same mistake.

The good thing about the BOI is that few read just the title knowing that anyone can post anything. Good people are usually vigorously defended and are always able to present their own evidence, or tell their side. I'm so glad that I've learned what some of the scams are. I'm sad that the man you work for was unfairly reviewed.
 
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What is 501.3 status? I definitely looked into starting a rescue. I'd still like to, though I doubt I would be able to afford to hire a full time vet in order to qualify as a nonprofit organization. I have all sorts of ideas floating around in my head of outdoor tortoise enclosures, filtered turtle ponds, outdoor areas for iguanas and monitors, a colubrid room and a python/boa room for the humidity lovers. I'll need a good job to make that come to life though.

I'm so sorry about Dolly. I think he may turn up though. It's never easy to lose a beloved pet, whether you've had them a week or a year. We lost a carpet python due to health issues. She was such a tiny thing. She was really tiny for her age, but we didn't think much of it. Shortly after we got her, she regurged. I took her to the vet, and did everything I could to get food in her. After a while, she stopped being able to go to the bathroom without being soaked and massaged. The breeder I work with was force feeding her to try to spark her feeding response. After she regurged a mouse tail, I knew she was done fighting and I had to let go. She was only with us for a couple months, but I miss her a lot. Losing a snake due to an escape, or illness, or old age all hurts just the same. Hopefully we get to see a post some day of your lost and found Dolly.

I read of a gecko that escaped. Over a year later it was found in the driveway, late one night, running underneath the trash bin. I love crazy reunion stories.

Ruth is definitely grateful. She's recovering from her second clutch of slugs. I found a reptile vet! He's in Dallastown, PA and is board certified for reptiles and exotics. I can't wait to get her in to see him!
 
Eavlynn said:
What is 501.3 status?
Click to expand...

Non-profit Org. The museum I worked for, though it was ran by a city municipality, was a 501c3. It made getting things easier, and yet difficult at times.

Eavlynn said:
I read of a gecko that escaped. Over a year later it was found in the driveway, late one night, running underneath the trash bin. I love crazy reunion stories.
Click to expand...

I think you might be talking about a user over on either gecko forums or geckos unlimited. He had a leopard gecko escape, assumed never to be found. If I recall the story correctly, he lives in like MN, WI, or MI and was under his house in a crawl space over a year later. While under there, he found the escaped gecko, alive and fat as could be.
 
501(c)(3) (sorry I mistyped it the first time) is a non profit tax status. People can also take donations to one as charitable on their taxes. It's an IRS thing. You have to follow certain rules. You don't need to have vets to qualify, they are just more likely to participate if you've done all your groundwork and established yourself as a bonfide charity.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-p...on-requirements-section-501-c-3-organizations

Thanks for your support about Dolly. Yes, pet loss is serious. The bereavement can be just as daunting as any loss due to death. I'm so sorry for your loss.

I'm also glad to hear you found a vet for Ruth! That's awesome. She definitely needs relief from laying slugs, poor little thing. I love her from afar for sure.
 
HerpsOfNM- Maybe it was in the crawl space. I know I saw the story on the gecko forum. They saw something scurry across the driveway at night as their headlights washed over it. Turns out if was their long lost gecko! How it survived is beyond me, but amazing nonetheless.

I'll have to look into 501c3. You can never have too much information. There are too few reptile rescues out there. If I were to start something up, I'd have to be more than prepared for some large inhabitants. Smaller animals are dropped off a lot, but pets that become too big to manage find their way to many rescues and shelters. It's a big responsibility.

Dolly and Axis - thanks for listening, and talking things through with me. We have a show coming up this saturday in Manassas, VA. It's usually pretty busy and has an awesome turn out, and I keep wondering how many people are going to come up and say something rude about the animals, or try and tell us how they are going to be the next biggest breeder after having just gotten their first snake a month ago. *sigh* I do look forward to the good folks though! And I can't wait to browse and see what everyone has been hatching this year before the doors open.
 
Hiya Eavlynn, Dollysmom, & HerpsOfNM (hope I didn't miss anyone)! How ya's been?

Since a recent (minor) injury I contracted from skydiving a couple of weeks back has me grounded temporarily, I have uncharacteristically been able to answer multiple posts today, allowing me to FINALLY catch up with some lost time on this forum! Kinda glad that there was a positive side-effect to a painful situation as this also allows for a constructive distraction as I am also "allergic" (wink, nod, etc.) to analgesics (pain killers) which also happen to be opioids or controlled substances! Need I explain any further?

But this particular thread addresses some complicated and deeply philosophical issues which speak to the very soul of some of the members here.

Amongst some examples, Eavlynn raises a particularly frustrating issue which has also provoked in me the desire to become physically capable of taking the life of a fellow human being! This is when someone is NOT stupid, however, but CLOSE-MINDED, which is much worse than a lack of intelligence (almost like the difference between being developmentally disabled or retarded and mentally-ill or plain CRAZY!)

Eavlynn said:
. . . Trying to provide information often feels like speaking to a brick wall. I attempted to help a young man understand that housing an adult ball python with an adult garter snake was a tremendously bad idea. The young man informed me that he had been working with reptiles since he was 12, and there was nothing wrong with the situation. Sometimes you can't educate everyone, or save every animal, and that's a tough reality to face. . . .
Click to expand...

Note: the young man in question seems to have been close-minded and NOT stupid! Therefore, this IS someone who probably deserves to have been strapped to a chair and beaten with a ballpeen hammer in front of his parents - or children or whomever! I'm sure you get the point.

DollysMom said:
. . . Sadly, we are all judged by the bad apples among us. Every time some clown does something irresponsible it is fodder for the AR people and the rest of us and our animals pay the price. The thing is that laws only apply to law abiding citizens. It's not like there are cops sitting there in their cars with snake detectors pointed at our homes. Sadly, some of the laws aimed to curtail hoarding, neglect, and indiscriminate breeding do nothing but place undue burdens on the responsible. Laws when appropriate are often poorly crafted on emotion, not fact. In the end, it is community and peer pressure that work best at keeping animals safe and well cared for. It is also the rescuers, that are there for people who get in over their heads or whose life circumstances change, who are the safety valve. We need to destigamitize reliquishing properly, while encouraging thoughtful and educated acquisition. The rescuers are the angels among us. We need to encourage and support reptile rescue organizations and adoption (as I know you do).

Sadly, there will always be the recalcitrant, not to mention the scammers (just read the BOI if you want an education).
Click to expand...

Holy Cornsnakes Batman!! What a genuinely well-crafted, articulate, and downright laser-focused point to make! I became aroused in more ways than ONE reading this paragraph Dollysmom!!! Outrageous point!

This is one of the main reasons I abhor regulations and regulatory laws in general! In the inner cities and urban areas, like the ones in which I work, most of my colleagues argue for gun control. However, I'm one of the rare opponents of such efforts because gun control would only be effective in terms of CONTROLLING those who are law-abiding citizens! Gangsters & gang-bangers operate OUTSIDE of most laws, so what do they care that you are making owning or carrying a gun illegal? It just means that law-abiding citizens will now be unarmed, making it even easier for those who operate outside of the laws of a civilized society to oppress them further! This is just BLATANT stupidity created by well-intentioned liberal-thinkers who have NEVER had to live or survive on the streets!!


DollysMom said:
. . .Sorry for my own mini rant there. It is said in support of you, Eavlynn.

Thank goodness for the forum, indeed!
Click to expand...

Reminds me of something you said recently in a thread you started not so very long ago!!

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143627

Alas, a topic which is stirring up a lot of passion!! Thanx for starting and participating in a thread which contains a great deal of substance!
 
Ugh...humans are so disappointing (that's being polite...)...I've only been to a few Repticon shows when they were putting them on in Boise and they were ok...very small compared to the likes of Tinley and such. That's where I picked up my snow stripe, lavender and hognose (all from the same breeder, who was very kind and took great care of his animals). It makes me so sad to think that people would treat any living being in such a manner...
 
Best wishes on the show Eavlynn! If you need to vent afterwards, we are here for you.

Thanks especially for your supportive comments in response, Axis.

In the meantime, I'll keep supporting my local reptile rescue, herpetological society, and USARK. Most of all I'll try to lead by example and care for my animals using generally accepted best practices, or better.
 
When I can I go to every show within driving distance and even sell at a couple of them. Thankfully my experiences has been positive over the 25+ years of going to shows and 45 years of shopping every pet store for reptiles. Now pet store ownership was a totally different experience down to the point that I finally said I don't need this crap from customers in my life and closed down the store that I put so much effort into. Fish and dog people were the worst! People (the good ones) said coming to my store was like going to a Zoo because of the way I displayed most of the animals. BOY the stories I could tell !! LOL Anyways...
when I walk around an expo I feel the bond (love of reptiles) with so many venders. We chat about the hobby or about what they are selling. What is really exciting is watching all the young future hobbyist going up to tables and asking to hold a snake or lizard. Yeah most of the time the parents are keeping their distance haha but I see pride on their faces that their child is doing something they wish they could do.
I usually always bring our pet snakes and lizards for show and tells and we usually have the one of the biggest crowds at our table. I mean who doesn't want to hold a 4 foot Tegu haha.
There will also be the importers with the really cool animals like Meller's Chameleons and the "uninformed" people buy because of their size and beauty then they walk around the expo with it on their shoulder. Us experienced cham owners can see that it is so stressed that it will be lucky enough to make it out of the show without just dropping dead.
When we do our educational shows at pet stores we always end the day feeling good about it. Still most kids come running up while some parents keep their distance. The "animal lovers" (dog and cat owners) that avoid us have always been polite.
 
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