Aaron, The "Pot smoking, sinner."

[ZoologyGirl]

Not a whole lot, zoology girl. But people very regularly drink more than one beer, and get drunk. After that, they can really REALLY drunk. After that, alcohol poisoning. It's not THAT hard to do. Plus, there is the chance that if you drink you could start to become an alcoholic, and drinking regularly can cause a whole host of health problems.

And what is the risk to you if I drink enough to get alcohol poisoning.

There is no risk to me when Mr. Jeff Jefferson goes skydiving and his parachute fails to open.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

There is non to me if you get alcohol poisoning, unless you were driving me around in a car or something. But like I said, it's not just about protecting other people, it's about protecting the user too. Which is were everyone disagrees with me, but it really just makes more sense to me.

 

[Outcast]

There is non to me if you get alcohol poisoning, unless you were driving me around in a car or something. But like I said, it's not just about protecting other people, it's about protecting the user too. Which is were everyone disagrees with me, but it really just makes more sense to me.

I really do not need anyone to protect me from myself. If they tried it still would not stop me from going out when it is warm enough to catch rattlesnakes and photograph them. And, I am pretty sure that may have more dangers involved than drinking and smoking...

 

[Tara80]

The difference Vicky, is free will.

 

[ZoologyGirl]

There is non to me if you get alcohol poisoning, unless you were driving me around in a car or something. But like I said, it's not just about protecting other people, it's about protecting the user too. Which is were everyone disagrees with me, but it really just makes more sense to me.

And again, if we're going to ban everything for the sake avoiding the chance of someone getting hurt in the name of "protecting them", a LOT of things are going to need to be banned. Pretty much everything. I hope you don't drive...because everytime you get in a car it is a danger to you.

I don't think Mr. Jeff Jefferson (RIP) would appreciate me trying to ban skydiving so that I could protect him from the chance of a non-functioning parachute.

As far as the drunken driving thing, I think you need to realize that that is a different behavior.

Drinking alcohol does not equal driving drunk.
Behavior 1: Drinking alcohol - no risk to you
Behavior 2: Driving drunk - risk to you - rightfully illegal.

Can drinking alcohol lead to driving drunk? Yes, obviously. Just like skydiving can lead to non-functioning parachute. Does drinking ALWAYS lead to driving drunk? No. They are 2 separate actions.

 

[vetusvates]

The difference Vicky, is free will.

Thank you, Tara. I had been meaning to mention that days ago, but alas I was (inevitably) drifting away from this thread.
However, the theme of "Free Will" should bridge a gap of understanding even with the most extremely religious and most extremely morally/ethically dogmatic.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Once again, driving is necessary for almost everybody. So even though it is dangerous, yes, it's a must have.

And no one has COMPLETE use of their free will. The fact that there are any laws and restrictions proves that. It's all about how much free will the government will let you have.

 

[kathylove]

...It's all about how much free will the government will let you have.

OMG - PLEASE tell me you didn't really mean to say that!

 

[ZoologyGirl]

Once again, driving is necessary for almost everybody. So even though it is dangerous, yes, it's a must have.

And no one has COMPLETE use of their free will. The fact that there are any laws and restrictions proves that. It's all about how much free will the government will let you have.

So you do think that skydiving should be made illegal? Because it is not necessary, and clearly poses a possible danger to the person who decides to do it.

Also, cars really are not necessary for survival when it comes right down to it. If the government really wanted to, they could be made illegal.

Why do you want to allow the government to have control of all your activities anyway? There have been numerous laws proposed to ban various reptiles. If the government decided that owning reptiles were illegal would you think the government right?

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty" - Thomas Jefferson

 

[vetusvates]

Once again, driving is necessary for almost everybody. So even though it is dangerous, yes, it's a must have.

And no one has COMPLETE use of their free will. The fact that there are any laws and restrictions proves that. It's all about how much free will the government will let you have.

Disagree 100%.

I have 100% free will. I have the free will to abide by or violate any law I choose.

 

[KingCrimson<3]

I tried to give up and I can't. It's just too frustrating.

I...I don't know what to say anymore, and I don't understand where you are coming from. You aren't even old enough to drink legally, and judging from your arguments I feel like you don't spend a lot of time around people who do drink and smoke. And if you don't want to, that is your choice, but I feel like you might want to see what it is all about before you write it off as dangerous.

I have been drinking alcohol since I was way too young, but I have never ever hurt myself or anyone else. My friends drink, but we do so safely, in our homes, at parties or sometimes at bars or clubs so long as we have a designated driver or some other form of safe transportation. The majority of people drink, and the ones who hurt themselves and others when they do tend to have much more serious and deep seated issues. And as for smoking marijuana, no one hurts anyone when they are stoned, and the same thing applies, the people who have a "problem" with it already have issues, and if it wasn't that it would be something else.

Most people make good decisions most of the time. And everyone does something dumb now and then, but taking away the right to make those decision, decisions that people make anyway completely contradicts the principles that America is founded on.

Humans are not the only animals that enjoy altering their perception, monkeys get drunk off fermented fruit, cats go crazy for catnip, people just want to feel good, and who is to tell them that they shouldn't.

Yes, make good choices, don't put others at risk, but relaxing with a glass of wine on a Friday night lowers your blood pressure, slows your heart rate and does all kinds of things that help you to relax.

Stress is dangerous and causes all kinds of emotional, physical and psychological problems. Ban stress!!!!

 

[Tavia]

Disagree 100%.

I have 100% free will. I have the free will to abide by or violate any law I choose.

I just had to comment on this, I agree with this statement 100%. But kind of from the other direction. It is something that urks me quite a bit, people use the idea of free will in the defense of breaking a law all the time. But in doing so, often they seem to think that that is the only use of free will, that deciding to obey a law is not equally a matter of free will.
If that made sense? It's past my bed time & I shouldn't be attempting to type right now, so I hope that was comprehensible.

 

[Tara80]

That should be fairly intuitive for most of us when looked at from a philosophical standpoint.
My intent of using 'free will' was to utilize some sort of description that would allow a different angle or perspective.
Perhaps I should have said it a different way; that the law should not suppress our right to exercise our free will without repercussions - unless our actions (intentionally or unintentionally) affect another in a way that they would not want - ultimately taking away their right to choose.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Ok, I worded that wrong. I meant freedom rather than free will, I see what you guys mean now. Sorry! I guess we all have 100% free will and can technically do whatever we want.

And King Crimson, it doesn't matter how much time I spend around people who drink. I'm looking at medical facts and statistics. And actually, my mom sister, aunt, and friends smoke cigs. My sister, best friends, and aunt drink. My sister and one of my best friends smoke a lot of pot. So I have a lot of experience being around people who are under the influence.

Just because YOU don't make bad decisions while you drink does NOT mean others won't. I cannot tell you how many crimes are committed because someone is drunk and got mad, or sad, or just did something stupid. Obviously, tons of people drink and drive too.

And whether or not humans are the only animals who enjoy altering their perception really isn't relevant.

And trying to make alcohol out to be something that's actually HEALTHY for you is.. ill conceived. Yeah, it has anti-oxidants and may lower blood pressure, but the cons outweigh the pros by SO much.

 

[Karoni]

Vicky, I have given you my best shot as have many others. This is something that I used to tell my daughter, and she never listened to me either, but when everyone you talk to says you are wrong, you need to reassess your position.

Wow. So much for an open discussion of views without the pressure to conform.

 

[Outcast]

And trying to make alcohol out to be something that's actually HEALTHY for you is.. ill conceived. Yeah, it has anti-oxidants and may lower blood pressure, but the cons outweigh the pros by SO much.

I really do not see this. Alcohol in moderation is just fine, In fact, I would much rather have a few drinks every once in a while than take a pill that has 300 possible side effects. I know what the side effects are from alcohol, and I know how to prepare accordingly.

Have I ever made a poor decision after getting drunk? Yes.
Am I glad that no one got hurt? Yes
Have I gotten drunk since then? No
Do I still drink in moderation? Yes.
Am I glad it is legal? Yes

 

[Chip]

Ok, I worded that wrong. I meant freedom rather than free will, I see what you guys mean now. Sorry! I guess we all have 100% free will and can technically do whatever we want.

Yes. And it isn't really logical to put people in jail for doing what doesn't harm others. That's really the last thing I'll try to make clear here. I feel like I'm spending my time trying to convince a Red Sox fan to appreciate the Yankees.

And King Crimson, it doesn't matter how much time I spend around people who drink. I'm looking at medical facts and statistics. And actually, my mom sister, aunt, and friends smoke cigs. My sister, best friends, and aunt drink. My sister and one of my best friends smoke a lot of pot. So I have a lot of experience being around people who are under the influence.

This is going to sound harsh, but I suspect this reflects more on the people you've been around who are under the influence! Hear me out... Cigarettes aren't going to make you inebriated, so don't even count those folks. If people are acting like idiots after a few drinks or getting high, they are most likely either very young, or an immature person to begin with. Or they simply are drinking/smoking too much, which is still indicative of carelessness and immaturity. Use those medical facts and statistics to determine what YOU put in your body, not what others are allowed to.

Just because YOU don't make bad decisions while you drink does NOT mean others won't. I cannot tell you how many crimes are committed because someone is drunk and got mad, or sad, or just did something stupid. Obviously, tons of people drink and drive too.

How 'bout reversing that. Just because others might make bad decisions doesn't mean I will! If you are basing laws on the majority, I don't think the majority of people who drink drive or commit crimes after doing so. Far from it.

And trying to make alcohol out to be something that's actually HEALTHY for you is.. ill conceived. Yeah, it has anti-oxidants and may lower blood pressure, but the cons outweigh the pros by SO much.

Really? That goes against every peer reviewed study I've seen in the last decade. A lot of people really do drink one glass of wine a night. The fact that alcoholics exist seems to be your biggest reasoning for prohibition.

Wow. So much for an open discussion of views without the pressure to conform.

Reassess doesn't mean conform. If Vicky were stating reasons alcohol wasn't right for her, I don't think you'd hear a peep from most of us. From my vantage point, she's wanting us to conform (and by law, by God!) to her way of thinking.

 

[KingCrimson<3]

I'm beginning to think that a lot of Vicky's opinion on alcohol and drug use is based on experiences with American youth culture, a culture of overindulgence and abuse, but that is because we make it that way by limiting exposure and creating pressure around consumption. Cultures where young people are introduced to wine with dinner when they turn twelve have lower instance of alcoholism and tend to be a lot healthier; obesity and diabetes instances are negligible and despite the fact that EVERYONE smokes cigarettes, Europeans seem to live longer.

I don't know if you are in school or have access to peer reviewed, academic journals, but I think you should do some research. Statistics do not stand alone and they can be VERY EASILY manipulated to say whatever the researchers want. If you don't have the appropriate context it is very difficult to tell when the data is being manipulated.

 

[oneirogenesis]

I don't know if you are in school or have access to peer reviewed, academic journals, but I think you should do some research. Statistics do not stand alone and they can be VERY EASILY manipulated to say whatever the researchers want. If you don't have the appropriate context it is very difficult to tell when the data is being manipulated.

Thank you! One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone busts out a scientific study or a set of statistics to defend a biased personal opinion totally out of context. Especially when their source of data has been skewed in the first place. It's like playing the "telephone" game as a child. I instinctively mistrust any data I find quoted by a source that has an agenda. This includes government websites.

 

[rexracer]

Good post, elrojo. I agree. Drinking (or smoking pot) might be unhealthy, or dangerous to some. It isn't to me. I am a non-adictive type for the most part, so I can take it or leave it. I do like good beer, and sometimes I'll get a growler and sit down with a like minded friend and drink it. I also might go a month or more without a drop of alcohol. Do you really think that just because you (or someone else) can't drink without getting out of control that it should be illegal for the vast majority that don't have a problem with it? You talk about it being unhealthy, but again, it's not unhealty for people who only drink in moderation.
Proccessed foods are unhealthy. It's proven and everyone knows it. They won't go away, though, because there is money to be made. It's up to us adults to be responsible for our own actions and limit our intake of unhealty things. Not the government.
The war on drugs can't be won for the same reasons. There's money to be made. I'm not only talking about illegal drug trafficers either. How many cops, DEA, politicians etc. do you think have received part of the billions in drug money to look the other way? Look at Mexico. When a flatfoot that's struggling to feed his kids is offered $250,000 to not bother someone that it would be dangerous to bother anyway, it's kind of hard to say no.
If pot were made legal, there are many farmers that would have a new cash crop to grow, industries for hemp production would start up, the pot would be cheaper since it was legal, so the illegal traffic would die, and all the crime that goes with it. And the tax benefits would be HUGE. Not to mention the $$ that would be saved on the "war" on drugs.