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Be Warned Reptile Hobbyists in Colorado
- Thread starter zorro
- Start date
zorro
Old Guy
I called her and she talked about the per show license of $200 or paying once a year license of $400. If you raise mice to feed your reptiles you also need a license. She said there was no distinction between hobbyists and retailers and everyone who sells reptiles is subject to this which includes selling not only at shows but on the web. She did say that they didn't hunt people down but if there was a complaint that the person could be subject to inspection, fines and fees.
I emailed Repticon (since they have a show in Denver in October) and they got back to me today. This is what Repticon found out:
Hey John,
Just wanted you to know what we found out today. Our staff member Sam Bearden talked to the head guy out there and he said that vendors are covered at the show under a blanketed permit that Repticon has. The permit that was mention in the email is for people who sell on Graigs list, Fauna, Kingsnake (and yes they have been watching all online sites) So all vendors who are booked for Denver will be covered under Repticon's permit at the show....
Hope this helps....
While this is good news for the show it mentions that they are watching people who sell on Craigs list, Fauna and Kingsnake.
What does everyone think?
Thanks
John
I emailed Repticon (since they have a show in Denver in October) and they got back to me today. This is what Repticon found out:
Hey John,
Just wanted you to know what we found out today. Our staff member Sam Bearden talked to the head guy out there and he said that vendors are covered at the show under a blanketed permit that Repticon has. The permit that was mention in the email is for people who sell on Graigs list, Fauna, Kingsnake (and yes they have been watching all online sites) So all vendors who are booked for Denver will be covered under Repticon's permit at the show....
Hope this helps....
While this is good news for the show it mentions that they are watching people who sell on Craigs list, Fauna and Kingsnake.
What does everyone think?
Thanks
John
DollysMom
It never gets old!
I think that there needs to be a distinction between small sellers and hobby breeders and large commercial sellers and breeders. A license for feeder mice for your own use? They are kidding, right? Seems like animal rights overreach to me. The fee is exorbitant for small and hobby breeders or other individuals.
And just what are the standards for reptiles? I hope the are no stupid blanket regs that don't really have the exact needs of each species in mind. We all know some general reptile husbandry is not good for corn snakes for example.
There will always be a few bad apples among owners and breeders. There are already laws to protect animals from cruelty and neglect. You can't legislate common sense. I guess legislators have no common sense either, or is this just an unintended consequence of anti puppy and kitty mill legislation?
One last thing. I thought pet selling was against Craiglist rules and that you can only charge a reasonable rehoming fee (though I've seen asking prices that are obviously to recoup investment or to make profit). Is the rehomeing fee a sale to CO? I believe a reasonable rehoming fee actually helps protect animals from those who want to obtain them for purposes other than giving them a home. So charge $50 to help ensure your pet is going to a good home and you get hit with $200 plus any fines and become subject to inspection? Crazy.
And just what are the standards for reptiles? I hope the are no stupid blanket regs that don't really have the exact needs of each species in mind. We all know some general reptile husbandry is not good for corn snakes for example.
There will always be a few bad apples among owners and breeders. There are already laws to protect animals from cruelty and neglect. You can't legislate common sense. I guess legislators have no common sense either, or is this just an unintended consequence of anti puppy and kitty mill legislation?
One last thing. I thought pet selling was against Craiglist rules and that you can only charge a reasonable rehoming fee (though I've seen asking prices that are obviously to recoup investment or to make profit). Is the rehomeing fee a sale to CO? I believe a reasonable rehoming fee actually helps protect animals from those who want to obtain them for purposes other than giving them a home. So charge $50 to help ensure your pet is going to a good home and you get hit with $200 plus any fines and become subject to inspection? Crazy.
AliCat37
Michelle's Candied Corns!
I am also curious about this. Didn't someone go through this a while back and they thought that people were running a public store from their home?
I also had spoken to someone previously about something like this while filing taxes and he had said you have to be earning a profit.. I know I am certainly in the red every year.
I also had spoken to someone previously about something like this while filing taxes and he had said you have to be earning a profit.. I know I am certainly in the red every year.
Karl_Mcknight
Common Sense Holder
Any time the government gets involved, "Follow the Money"
They don't have any concern for the safety and well being of your mice, rats, or corn snakes. They want the taxes and fees and anything else they can squeeze out of you, and they are always, (emphasis "Always") looking for ways to get more money out of every one of us.
Auto inspections, Gas Taxes, Ciggy Taxes, Sales Taxes, Income Taxes, Property Taxes, Internet Taxes, cable TV Taxes, State taxes, County Taxes, and on and on and on and.... Now taxes on your Snake Breeding or Selling. Good luck with all that.
Somebody has to pay for all the crap our Government is doing (that they have no business doing) and now some of you are going to take a hit.
They don't have any concern for the safety and well being of your mice, rats, or corn snakes. They want the taxes and fees and anything else they can squeeze out of you, and they are always, (emphasis "Always") looking for ways to get more money out of every one of us.
Auto inspections, Gas Taxes, Ciggy Taxes, Sales Taxes, Income Taxes, Property Taxes, Internet Taxes, cable TV Taxes, State taxes, County Taxes, and on and on and on and.... Now taxes on your Snake Breeding or Selling. Good luck with all that.
Somebody has to pay for all the crap our Government is doing (that they have no business doing) and now some of you are going to take a hit.
backafter30
New member
I called the PACFA office, and the admin assistant was actually very nice. I was told, however, that it does not matter how many animals one has, or how much money you do or do not make from them. If it is for the "pet trade", it is not considered "unregulated wildlife". They want to license your "facility", license the right to sell at shows, and license the right to sell wholesale. They want a separate license if you breed mice or rats, and told me I needed a federal USDA license to ship across state lines. They claimed to be going to pet stores to insure that they are purchasing animals only from licensed breeders, will be attending shows to make sure all vendors are licensed, and are researching websites and online forums, looking for Coloradans actively trying to sell reptiles. They want everyone licensed, "for the good of the animals". On the brighter side, she asked if I could specifically define the difference between the hobbyist and the person just in it for the money. I could not, and she admitted that they could not either. She actually asked for feedback from me and other hobbyists, and suggested that with enough input, they could modify the regulations in order to keep tabs on the businesses without hampering the basement breeders. I told her that hobbyists were not likely to contact them because they did not want to be on a list of future inspections. I said that the hobbyists needed an advocate to speak for them, and USARK came to mind. She was actually rather excited by that idea, and said that they would welcome a dialog with the hobbyists.
I see this simply as a power grab by the Dept of Ag, and an opportunity for them to make a ton of money for doing next to nothing. Fully implemented, PACFA could squash the reptile industry in Colorado, without helping a single animal. We do indeed need an advocate.
I see this simply as a power grab by the Dept of Ag, and an opportunity for them to make a ton of money for doing next to nothing. Fully implemented, PACFA could squash the reptile industry in Colorado, without helping a single animal. We do indeed need an advocate.
DollysMom
It never gets old!
https://usark.org/contact/ For anyone who wants to bring this to the attention of USARK. I don't breed or sell or live in Colorado, but I still find this outrageous. From a little research I've learned that this is considered a model law so anyone's state could be next. I'm not sure of the history but there seems to have been a revision in 2014 that is bringing this new wave of enforcement on small and hobby breeders of all pets.
Nanci
Alien Lover
Well- that sucks! In Florida, you have to have a license to sell reptiles, whether it be one or hundreds, and they absolutely do watch Craigslist and try to catch people selling a single cornsnake or bearded dragon. Fortunately, the process of getting a license is pretty straight forward, and then you just renew it annually. The cost is $50. You don't automatically get inspected, although you must agree that they can, if they want to. The process involves filling out a list of all your species, with numbers, having a vet reference and another person to contact, not on the premises, in case of emergency, and you have to have an emergency/evacuation plan written up.
backafter30
New member
I think this could all be an overreaction in response to some irresponsible keepers whose deplorable conditions were flaunted in the news a while back. It is unfortunate, but not everyone has the same ideas on cleanliness.
I sent USARK a note late last night, and have a response already this morning! They seemed interested in the situation, and are going to look into it. They did say right off that USDA does not regulate reptiles at all, so the license to ship over state lines is bogus. That's a step in the right direction!
I sent USARK a note late last night, and have a response already this morning! They seemed interested in the situation, and are going to look into it. They did say right off that USDA does not regulate reptiles at all, so the license to ship over state lines is bogus. That's a step in the right direction!
crackerhead
Hug Free Zone
Hey John this is part of what sticks in my head through this whole post: "We have received information..." from whom?
Have you talked to Sean about this? Does he have all the necessary crap the state is requiring of you? Where's your pet store? I'd love to drop by for a visit. lol I also don't understand Repticon's response. Does that mean that as long as you only sell your animals at their shows you can bypass the state's individual regulations? Does that make you contract breeders for Repticon? Do they send you a 1099 at the end of the year? LOL
I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's ridiculous and over reaching in the extreme. USDA rules applied to "Pet Stores" are AWA (Animal Welfare Act) involved and Do Not apply to cold blooded or farm animals. Hence no one cares if you treat your goldfish with malice but God help the person who looks cross eyed at the tank of hamsters. Unless you do in-person business out of your home, as in people come to your house and browse to buy, I don't get the pet store comment. I can't see anyone complaining about you or the manner with which you care for your animals either. So that leaves me with my original query: Who ratted you out? and Why?
Terri
Have you talked to Sean about this? Does he have all the necessary crap the state is requiring of you? Where's your pet store? I'd love to drop by for a visit. lol I also don't understand Repticon's response. Does that mean that as long as you only sell your animals at their shows you can bypass the state's individual regulations? Does that make you contract breeders for Repticon? Do they send you a 1099 at the end of the year? LOL
I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's ridiculous and over reaching in the extreme. USDA rules applied to "Pet Stores" are AWA (Animal Welfare Act) involved and Do Not apply to cold blooded or farm animals. Hence no one cares if you treat your goldfish with malice but God help the person who looks cross eyed at the tank of hamsters. Unless you do in-person business out of your home, as in people come to your house and browse to buy, I don't get the pet store comment. I can't see anyone complaining about you or the manner with which you care for your animals either. So that leaves me with my original query: Who ratted you out? and Why?
Terri
backafter30
New member
I don't necessarily think anyone ratted John out. That's just their standard wording. No one who knows John would want to cause him problems. When I called the office, they said they were looking for websites and advertisements for people actively trying to sell reptiles. That is a very aggressive strategy, and much more than they've done in the past. John has a nice website, and Sean has got to be on their list, too. I really hope USARK can put PACFA back in its place.
DollysMom
It never gets old!
It's a form letter. They could have done a web search for their information.
That's another thing I don't understand. Feeder mice are not pets. Feeder mice are animals being raised as food. So how do they come under a pet rule?
There doesn't need to be a store under this law.
I can't find the number of snakes you are allowed to sell before you are considered a pet care facility. There are exceptions for puppies and kitties, but I guess no snake breeders were at the table when this got passed and its a TBD thing that I can't find a number on anywhere. They hit any small animal breeder other than the listed ones like birds and fish with $350 per year. That's the same as the dog breeder fee. Something about that doesn't seem kosher either.
Here it is in all of its "glory":
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/8 CCR 1201-11.pdf
I'm glad to see that the reptile rules are adaptable to the needs of each species. I still wonder what happens if their rules are at odds with the current best husbandry practices. The breeder may know what is best but trying to prove it to a government agency with a different idea is another thing.
There's no doubt in my mind that this law and these fees hit the small guys, breeding for the love of it and making little to no profit, the worst.
P.S. I was writing and researching so did not mean to repeat some things that backafter30 said.
That's another thing I don't understand. Feeder mice are not pets. Feeder mice are animals being raised as food. So how do they come under a pet rule?
There doesn't need to be a store under this law.
I can't find the number of snakes you are allowed to sell before you are considered a pet care facility. There are exceptions for puppies and kitties, but I guess no snake breeders were at the table when this got passed and its a TBD thing that I can't find a number on anywhere. They hit any small animal breeder other than the listed ones like birds and fish with $350 per year. That's the same as the dog breeder fee. Something about that doesn't seem kosher either.
Here it is in all of its "glory":
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/8 CCR 1201-11.pdf
I'm glad to see that the reptile rules are adaptable to the needs of each species. I still wonder what happens if their rules are at odds with the current best husbandry practices. The breeder may know what is best but trying to prove it to a government agency with a different idea is another thing.
There's no doubt in my mind that this law and these fees hit the small guys, breeding for the love of it and making little to no profit, the worst.
P.S. I was writing and researching so did not mean to repeat some things that backafter30 said.
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