Boa experts - Your opinions please.

[DAVE FOWLER]

We bought this little fella a couple of months ago from our local reptile shop. The owner seemed unsure as to what type of Boa he is (BCC/BCI). Despite a lot of research on both the internet and books I still can't identify one way or another. I'll find a picture of an almost identical snake labelled as a BCI for example and then find from another source, a snake exactly the same labelled as a BCC. Time for some expert opinions please.

 

[Snake Dave]

That would be a Red-Tailed boa, or in taxonomy, the scientific name is Boa constrictor constrictor, so he must be a BCC. Even though BCIs can have reddish tails, it's usually more light brown or even grey, so IMO, that's a BCC.

Oh and a very nice one at that, I wish you the best of luck.

All the best

David

 

[DAVE FOWLER]

Thanx for the reply Dave. I,m posting another pic which shows the tail from a different angle - maybe helpful.

 

[mele2511]

That 100% is a common boa .. I would bet money on it.

 

[Snake Dave]

That 100% is a common boa .. I would bet money on it.

Yeah, but both BCCs and BCIs are classed as Common boas, he wanted to know which one it was. IMO, that's a BCC.

Oh and Dave, nice picture and yeah it just helps to show that it's a BCC as opposed to a BCI.

Best of luck with him/her.

David

 

[Intravenous]

I vote BCI...it's tail isn't that red (BCI's can have browny red tails like yours too) and it looks like it has more than 20 saddles which is an indication of a BCI.

 

[Intravenous]

That would be a Red-Tailed boa, or in taxonomy, the scientific name is Boa constrictor constrictor, so he must be a BCC. Even though BCIs can have reddish tails, it's usually more light brown or even grey, so IMO, that's a BCC.

Oh and a very nice one at that, I wish you the best of luck.

All the best

David

This is an example of a B.C.C.:

(Picture taken from http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com)

It's tail is much redder and note the relatively smaller number of saddles.

 

[Snake Dave]

Meh, all the pictures I've seen of BCIs haven't looked like his. Besides, you have to remember that his snake is only a young'un, it still have plenty of growing and its colours could easily change by the time it's the size of the one above. Either way, it's still a Common boa.

But anyway, what do I know.

 

[tyflier]

I am absolutely, 100% positive that is a BCI. One might wonder how, exactly, I can be so sure...so I'll tell you.

2 Things. First, it possess a "cross" towards the nose. This is most commonly found among Central American BCI, though this is not the determining factor. What makes me so absolutely positive is the saddle count. A BCI will always have 21 or more saddles, starting from the first saddle on the neck to the saddle located directly above the cloaca. Do not count tail saddles. A BCC will always have 20 or less. If you count the saddles in the picture of the BCC, you will notice it has 18 or 19 saddles from neck to cloaca. The snake in question has 24 or 25, or thereabouts...but definitely more than 21.

Color can be an indicator, as BCC tend to be darker. "Speckling" can be an indicator, as BCC tend to display more. The "cross" can be an indicator, as BCC tend not to have them. But all of these indicators are not completely accurate. Saddle count is accurate...always.

What you have there is a BCI...I'd bet money on it...

 

[Intravenous]

Meh, all the pictures I've seen of BCIs haven't looked like his. Besides, you have to remember that his snake is only a young'un, it still have plenty of growing and its colours could easily change by the time it's the size of the one above. Either way, it's still a Common boa.

But anyway, what do I know.

There are lots of different subgroups of B.C.I. though (many more than there are of BCC) and none of them have the low saddle count of B.C.C.s. or such vibrant colours.

Also, the red tends to be even more obvious in the young ones so it wouldn't be a case of colouring up.

 

[Intravenous]

I am absolutely, 100% positive that is a BCI. One might wonder how, exactly, I can be so sure...so I'll tell you.

2 Things. First, it possess a "cross" towards the nose. This is most commonly found among Central American BCI, though this is not the determining factor. What makes me so absolutely positive is the saddle count. A BCI will always have 21 or more saddles, starting from the first saddle on the neck to the saddle located directly above the cloaca. Do not count tail saddles. A BCC will always have 20 or less. If you count the saddles in the picture of the BCC, you will notice it has 18 or 19 saddles from neck to cloaca. The snake in question has 24 or 25, or thereabouts...but definitely more than 21.

Color can be an indicator, as BCC tend to be darker. "Speckling" can be an indicator, as BCC tend to display more. The "cross" can be an indicator, as BCC tend not to have them. But all of these indicators are not completely accurate. Saddle count is accurate...always.

What you have there is a BCI...I'd bet money on it...

What I want to know is...what is the cross? I can't see any obvious kind of cross on his snake. Secondly...how do people estimate where the clocae is from a picture ? I want to know.

 

[Intravenous]

I meant

cloaca

...I took a guess at the spelling because I'm used to saying "vent"

 

[Pruddock]

I am absolutely, 100% positive that is a BCI. One might wonder how, exactly, I can be so sure...so I'll tell you.

2 Things. First, it possess a "cross" towards the nose. This is most commonly found among Central American BCI, though this is not the determining factor. What makes me so absolutely positive is the saddle count. A BCI will always have 21 or more saddles, starting from the first saddle on the neck to the saddle located directly above the cloaca. Do not count tail saddles. A BCC will always have 20 or less. If you count the saddles in the picture of the BCC, you will notice it has 18 or 19 saddles from neck to cloaca. The snake in question has 24 or 25, or thereabouts...but definitely more than 21.

Color can be an indicator, as BCC tend to be darker. "Speckling" can be an indicator, as BCC tend to display more. The "cross" can be an indicator, as BCC tend not to have them. But all of these indicators are not completely accurate. Saddle count is accurate...always.

What you have there is a BCI...I'd bet money on it...

I was going to post the same exact thing but decided to read all the posts first and tyflier...you did my work for me lol. Great post.

 

[DAVE FOWLER]

Thanx for the replies. If you guys can't agree, it makes sense as to why I'm struggling. I've posted another pic, which while not as clear as the others, does show Kreuger's(male) back pattern. Just to add more fuel to the debate, according to Vosjoli's 'The Boa Constrictor Manual', BCIs - "The belly is not speckled or lightly speckled in most specimens." BCCs - "Their bellies are usually speckled in black." As you can see from the first two pics Kreuger's belly is heavily speckled.

 

[Eriathiel]

My vote is ...

Very Pretty!

Of course that might not be helpful... good luck figureing it out!

 

[TrpnBils]

This is an example of a B.C.C.:

(Picture taken from http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com)

It's tail is much redder and note the relatively smaller number of saddles.

That's a great example of a BCC from a fairly large breeder who's going to produce high quality animals. That breeder there doesn't sell his $500+ snakes to ma and pa pet stores... The picture is nice, but doesn't really reflect the surplus animals that are going to end up in small shops like the one where this one came from.

A lot of people said BCC, which could be right, but there's another possibility to think about. A lot of boas out there aren't full-blooded anything. They're crosses between BCCs and BCIs and different localities of each. My one redtail that came from a fairly large breeder is a BCC (Peru) x BCI cross but he's got the characteristics of a full blooded BCC. So I'm not an expert by any means, but MY opinion is that you'll never know for sure...

 

[tyflier]

My counts from the pictures are close-enough guesses, based on an estimation of where the vents are. Typically, the vents are where the "side saddles" end. I have marked where I guesstimate the vents to be in both pictures, and I have also marked where the "cross" is in front of the eyes of the BCI.

And yes...intergrades and/or hybrids throw the whole shooting match to the garbage can. The information I posted is assuming the animals are pure.

Also...regarding de Vosjoli's book...you'll notice he uses the terms "usually" and "typically" when referring to the coloration of BCC and BCI. That is because, as I said earlier, neither speckling nor coloration are 100%. Saddle counts are 100% accurate in visually identifying BCI from BCC, when dealing with pure animals.

Here are my markings indicating the cross, and both cloacal openings. I am within 1 saddle on either count, which still puts the numbers high(or low) enough to be 100% sure...IF the animals are pure...

 

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

I am absolutely, 100% positive that is a BCI. One might wonder how, exactly, I can be so sure...so I'll tell you.

2 Things. First, it possess a "cross" towards the nose. This is most commonly found among Central American BCI, though this is not the determining factor. What makes me so absolutely positive is the saddle count. A BCI will always have 21 or more saddles, starting from the first saddle on the neck to the saddle located directly above the cloaca. Do not count tail saddles. A BCC will always have 20 or less. If you count the saddles in the picture of the BCC, you will notice it has 18 or 19 saddles from neck to cloaca. The snake in question has 24 or 25, or thereabouts...but definitely more than 21.

Color can be an indicator, as BCC tend to be darker. "Speckling" can be an indicator, as BCC tend to display more. The "cross" can be an indicator, as BCC tend not to have them. But all of these indicators are not completely accurate. Saddle count is accurate...always.

What you have there is a BCI...I'd bet money on it...

BCI = True Redtail (i.e. Suriname, Gayana, Peruvian...etc.)
Very good reply Chris. Pretty much states the case. The cross on the head is not always an indicator but saddle and sub scale count is. Counting belly scales and even certain head scales will also help identify sub-species as well. Here is a great site dedicated to maintaining true bloodlines. He has some of the most amazing undiluted genetics of boas there is to have.

www.RioBravoReptiles.com

Get a few books, there are a ton of very good ones, and do some deeper research on the net. You will find the Boas are very different then Colubrids. Hope this helps.
Jay

Just to throw you a monkey wrench. If you really want a nice Boa try a B.C.O.