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Breed & Species Bans

Hypancistrus

Hypancistrus

New member
As you all know, I mod for a fish forum. I just backed away from what could have been a resounding debate with the head moderator over there with regards to breed and species bans. Basically I've said my piece over there numerous times in the past and most people think I am a loon because of it... but I just don't understand why people think that the pet industry as a whole lying down and allowing the government to ban even one species is not eventually going to trickle down to the species you chose to work with??

I mean it's really easy to sit on your couch watching the news at night, scratching your Golden Retrievers ears and see a blurb on the government of another town banning pit bulls and say "That has nothing to do with me-- I don't keep pitbulls." But I bet the people with Rottweiler's, Dobies and Shepherds aren't thinking the same thing-- they know it's only a matter of time.

Likewise, it's easy to see places attacking and outlawing ownership of giant snakes (burms, 'condas, and other big boys) and say "Well that won't bother me-- I keep corn snakes!"

But how many times have we seen these bills get tweaked or changed so that they DO somehow include corn snakes?! Remember that bill last year in Baltimore City? The one that would ban snakes "over 5' in length?" There's a member on here with a giant corn I am sure would be affected by that, and lots of members have 5-6' female BP's.

The slippery slope, to me, is clear... so why don't other people see it??

If anyone is interested in the initial post that spawned this rant here it is.
 
Just like gun control.

"What do I care? I do not have any fully automatic weapons."

"Oh wait, I have a semi automatic shotgun and a semi automatic pistol, do they want those too?"


Eventually, yes they do.

Great post.
 
I guess you pointed it out right there with your "slippery slope" thought... It is just a matter of what is important to folks at the moment. If it isn't an immediate threat to them, then it isn't important. If it is, then it is "Oh, no you don't!"

Therein lay the rub... and the reason why I think expansive government is inherently "evil" but at times necessary. We just gotta keep up on things or one day it WILL affect us.

There are very few of "us" who try to look at the "far reaching" effects of law. Others tend to see the only what's in front of them.

ADDED this after giving you rep... made me think...

We also have to be aware that sometimes the laws, rules, etc. that WE want can be a cause for concern in others as THEY look at the "far reaching effects" of those laws, rules, etc.

The gun control analogy is very good! It is exactly what I was thinking of... among other things. One change... "WHEN will they want those (semi auto weapons) too."
 
Hi Lauren!
I was wondering why you had been so quiet for the past days. Well, that explains why. :)
Great thread. As Fred and Michael also said, people can be "nearsighted," forgetting that the same law that has nothing to do with them today can have its effects felt later on.
 
This is a very good post and should be part of this thread.

Many people here do not know their local laws and I am sure they are living in a city that already has a ban on most reptiles, amphibians and exotics.

Here in the twin cities, there is a ban on all exotics, and this includes reptiles in Minneapolis. I could not keep a leopard gecko there if I wanted to.

Now in St. Paul, there is a law where you have to have a Permit to keep a snake and lizards,its a $72 permit per snake. The Permit list is here. Fee price is here.

I remembered a few months ago, a teenager argued with me and on the fact he could keep his snake with out a permit cause he lived in St. Paul and there is no regulations, per the guy at Petco. It was all in PMs.

For the most fact, most stores employees do not know the laws, nor do most people in fact. Its best to call the city and ask them if there are in laws or regulations on reptiles.
 
I for one don't think the government should be stepping in and banning any animal! Thats just me though. I see no reason. With pitbulls, don't ban the breed throw the fools who fight them into jail. Throw the fools who train them to be mean in jail! While breeding has a lot to do with the way an animal MAY act TRAINING has more to do with it. People are scared and its because people are scared that animals suffer. If the right kind of people take the time to train their dogs to respect people and other animals everyone would be happy.

Why not bann the little dogs? They bite more because people dont want to train them. In my life time I have been bitten by ONE large dog, in the three years I have been a vet asst I have been bitten 20 times by little dogs. Why? Becasue the owners dont want to hurt the dog. It's a dog! I dont care if its 5 pounds or 150 pounds it needs training!

Any dog can bite, its only a matter of time. I have seen labs attack and kill other dogs. I have seen poodles attack people. I have seen goldens attack people and dogs. All breeds bite. All breeds need to be trained and none shoud be banned.

Just my thoughts
 
NFS07 said:
I for one don't think the government should be stepping in and banning any animal! Thats just me though. I see no reason. With pitbulls, don't ban the breed throw the fools who fight them into jail. Throw the fools who train them to be mean in jail! While breeding has a lot to do with the way an animal MAY act TRAINING has more to do with it. People are scared and its because people are scared that animals suffer. If the right kind of people take the time to train their dogs to respect people and other animals everyone would be happy.

Why not bann the little dogs? They bite more because people dont want to train them. In my life time I have been bitten by ONE large dog, in the three years I have been a vet asst I have been bitten 20 times by little dogs. Why? Becasue the owners dont want to hurt the dog. It's a dog! I dont care if its 5 pounds or 150 pounds it needs training!

Any dog can bite, its only a matter of time. I have seen labs attack and kill other dogs. I have seen poodles attack people. I have seen goldens attack people and dogs. All breeds bite. All breeds need to be trained and none shoud be banned.

Just my thoughts
Click to expand...

Ditto, oh and also replace dogs with guns.
 
Before I got too busy with my store, I regularly volunteered for the local nature center. We took in more burms, retics, rocks, red eared sliders and green iguanas every year than you would believe. If the animals survived the horrible conditions, they inevitably got too large/expensive for their owners to care for. These animals were really hard to place. Likewise, now that I've opened a pet store, I get regular calls to see if I'll take these in addition to Pacus, oscars, and plecos. It's never a managuense, frontosa, clown trigger or "nice" big fish that people can no longer house - it's the big, prolific cheap ones. And when I politely tell them no, they often ask if it will live in a local lake.

It always seems to be the same handful of species and the same type of irresponsible owners who cause all the problems that cause talk of bans. There is a reason no one has ever called my store to take in an unwanted woma. They have some value. Cheap = disposable in the pet trade. But I'll fight tooth and nail for our right to keep them.

So I just don't carry iguanas, the big 5, sulcattas, or any of these fish except plecos (which someone always wants). If they want a burm or green iguana or pacu, they can go to PetSmart. Just don't call me when it outgrows its habitat or the feeding bill gets too high.
 
NFS07 said:
I for one don't think the government should be stepping in and banning any animal! Thats just me though. I see no reason.
Click to expand...

mike17l said:
Ditto, oh and also replace dogs with guns.
Click to expand...
You could put just about anything there... animals, guns, Bibles, school choice, etc. Once it starts, where does it end? Then, when does it affect YOU? (by YOU I mean it in an "overall sense"... not aiming at anyone in particular).
 
elrojo said:
Before I got too busy with my store, I regularly volunteered for the local nature center. We took in more burms, retics, rocks, red eared sliders and green iguanas every year than you would believe. If the animals survived the horrible conditions, they inevitably got too large/expensive for their owners to care for. These animals were really hard to place. Likewise, now that I've opened a pet store, I get regular calls to see if I'll take these in addition to Pacus, oscars, and plecos. It's never a managuense, frontosa, clown trigger or "nice" big fish that people can no longer house - it's the big, prolific cheap ones. And when I politely tell them no, they often ask if it will live in a local lake.

It always seems to be the same handful of species and the same type of irresponsible owners who cause all the problems that cause talk of bans. There is a reason no one has ever called my store to take in an unwanted woma. They have some value. Cheap = disposable in the pet trade. But I'll fight tooth and nail for our right to keep them.

So I just don't carry iguanas, the big 5, sulcattas, or any of these fish except plecos (which someone always wants). If they want a burm or green iguana or pacu, they can go to PetSmart. Just don't call me when it outgrows its habitat or the feeding bill gets too high.
Click to expand...

The sad part is that no matter how much you try to educate these people, they always say the same thing. "I can handle it!"

It's a shame!! And, they are the ones who ruin it for everyone else. THEY are the ones that give the rest of US a bad name. :fullauto:

Wayne
 
Here is a new one that is out there.

Take Action Against S373 Today!

Senator Bill Nelson of Florida has Proposed a FEDERAL BAN on ALL Pythons. S373 is a Very Simple Bill that calls for no Appropriations (funding). That makes it Dangerous because it would be so easy to pass without any real consideration. We must take Action NOW to try and STOP this Bill from passing as written.

What it is:

* S373 is a Federal Ban that would effect ALL pythons in EVERY State.
* This Bill is an effort to bypass the established process of 'Rule Change' to the Injurious Wildlife List of the Lacey Act that was initiated by the South Florida Water Management District last year. This process is moving into it's second year and is ongoing. USARK warned last April at the 'Herp Summit' in Chicago that a political move was afoot to go around the normal 'Rule Change' process. Although ridiculed by some as "Not Possible", S373 proves that prediction true.
* This is an issue regarding Burmese Pythons living feral in South Florida. No other species. No where else. Other pythons have nothing to do with feral populations of Burmese Pythons in South Florida.
* S373 has been moved into the Water & Wildlife Sub- Committee. It will be heard there and if given a favorable rating move back to the full Environment & Public Works Committee. (see contact info below)

What it isn't:

* This is NOT HR669 the other Federal Bill that we have been campaigning against.
* There is NO Scientific Evidence to support the premise that passing S373 will have any impact whatsoever on the Burmese Python situation that is confined to the Southern tip of Florida.
* There is absolutely NO Evidence of any kind to support that this is a problem anywhere outside of South Florida.

What USARK is doing:

* USARK is working with Scientists on the ground in South Florida and throughout the SE to understand the real dynamics of what has occurred with the Burmese Python. Not the hype but the Hard Facts. During their annual conference South Eastern Partners in Amphibian & Reptile Conservation (SE PARC) established an Invasive Species Task Force to look into these questions. ALL of the Best Minds on the Subject from all the top universities and government agencies were on hand. Dr. Warren Booth, PhD Invasive Species Biologist & Andrew Wyatt, both of USARK, played a leadership role in the formation of the Task Force.
* Shawn Heflick is leading USARK's participation in a PBS Documentary arranged by Tom Crutchfield/ Shawn Heflick and Hosted by Nigel Marven to publicize the truth behind the Burmese Python & other potential Invasive Herps in South Florida.
* USARK is not only working chest deep in the Everglades, but we are actively working to influence key personnel in the US House and Senate, as well as the National Park Service and the US Fish & Wildlife Service. From the Everglades to Washington DC we are working hard on behalf of our community and industry to assure that if any legislation is passed, it will be fair and in the best interests of the Herp Community. We have No other conflicting allegiances.
* USARK has introduced State Legislation including Non- Release & Escape Prevention provisions providing safety measures at the State level.

What Can You Do Today to STOP S373?

1. Join USARK's Reptile Nation!There is Strength in Numbers... Protect Your Rights!
2. Call, write, email & fax the Sponsor and the Sub-Committee for S373. (contact info & sample letter below)
3. Be Polite & Professional. If you can't do this don't bother because it will damage our efforts.
4. ***Forward this to everyone on your email list, post it on every forum/ social networking site.
5. When you have finished with the steps above, send an email to [email protected] with 'No on S373' in the Subject Line so that USARK can track the number of responses.

Sample Letter (cut & paste):

Subject: NO on S373

I oppose S373 as written. The Burmese Python issue is a South Florida issue not a National one. There is No credible evidence to show that these animals can exist north of Lake Okeechobee. Many different species of Pythons have been imported into the US over the last 50 years. The only pythons that have been established have been Burmese Pythons, but only in South Florida; no where else. No evidence exists anywhere to suggest that Banning all Pythons will have any positive impact on the effected area in the southern tip of Florida.

Banning all pythons nationwide would have a devastating effect on an already troubled economy. It would destroy thousands of hardworking American families and small businesses. Not just the breeders and dealers but hobbyists, dry goods, equipment manufacturers, food providers, shippers, trade shows, hotels and restaurants. To overlook the crushing blow this would have to an entire segment of the economy is irresponsible.

(add what S373 would mean to you and your family)

Sincerely,

(signature line)



Contacts:

Senator Bill Nelson

716 Senate Hart Office Building, Washington, DC 20510
Phone: 202-224-5274
Fax: 202-228-2183

http://billnelson.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm





Sheldon Whitehouse, D-RI
Hart Senate Office Building, Room 502, Washington, D.C. 20510
email: form at http://whitehouse.senate.gov/contact/ phone: 202-224-2921Fax: 202-228-6362

Tom Udall, D-NM
B40D Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C. 20510
email: form at http://tomudall.senate.gov/contact/contact.cfm
phone: (202) 224-6621

Jeff Merkley, D-Ore
SDB-40B Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C. 20510
email: form at http://merkley.senate.gov/contact/contact.cfm phone: (202) 228-3997fax: 202-2283997

Mike Crapo, Ranking Member, R-Idaho
239 Dirksen Senate Building, Washington, DC 20510
email: form at http://crapo.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm
phone: (202) 224-6142fax: 202-228-1375

John Barrasso, R-WY
307 Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, DC 20510
email: form at http://barrasso.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactUs.ContactForm
phone: (202) 224-6441
tollfree: (866) 235-9553

Lamar Alexander, R-TN
455 Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, DC 20510
email: form at http://alexander.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home
phone: (202) 224-4944fax: 202-228-3398
 
elrojo said:
So I just don't carry iguanas, the big 5, sulcattas, or any of these fish except plecos (which someone always wants). If they want a burm or green iguana or pacu, they can go to PetSmart. Just don't call me when it outgrows its habitat or the feeding bill gets too high.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. There's just not that many people who can care for an adult iguana, retic, pacu, south American redtailed cat, or arowana that they need to be regularyl IN STOCK at any pet store. It's one thing to special order one for a client you know is capable-- but there's no need to have them there for the general public to peruse.

Trickster-- seeing as how I am almost bedridden at this point, I went ahead and composed an email and sent it to every email address you listed. II hope it is okay that I copied and pasted that to my non-finned pets forum over at Fish Geeks??

Here is what I added to the pre-written section: "There are numerous small pythons that make excellent pets-- including pythons such as ball pythons, spotted and Children's pythons and others. These pets are commonplace in many American homes and are wonderful, easy-care animals for the modern age. My family currently keeps four of these smaller pythons, and we use them in classroom demonstrations, educational presentations and community outreach events in which we introduce our snakes to people from ages 3 to 80! A nationwide ban on pythons would have terrible effects on the reptiles industry, the pet trade as a whole, and also to my family and the people we reach every year with our animals."
 
Lauren, that is perfect, that was actually sent to me via USARK.
Sign up on their website and you can get those messages as well.
 
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