Does this sound fair - Leopard gecko breeding loan issues

[Ssthisto]

I'm wondering if I'm being too off-the-wall and wondering how others have handled breeding loans in the past.

I own six adult female leopard geckos of various genetic morphs - including albino het blizzard, blizzard and hypo/super hypo. These guys are proven breeders, though I hadn't planned to breed more than three of them this year, to my blizzard het albino male. Last year four of them were bred and produced some hatchlings, though less than I would have liked as we didn't have the best incubator setup and we had fairly jerryrigged housing for hatchlings after they hatched. We still produced 24 successful hatchlings.

My best friend, who boards two juvenile female geckos, an adult male gecko and two and a half sand boas with us, purchased a male Mack Snow possible het albino last year. It was agreed that he would be the male I used this year, and that I would breed all of my available adult females to him. We had a sort of verbal "Yeah, and we'll split the profits and that'll be cool."

The male Mack has already been seen mating all six of the specified females.

Now, this year, I want to have everything all ready in advance, stable and set up properly so that we don't have the incubation issues we had last year (which lost us about half of the clutches) - and that we know exactly which babies carry what genes and exactly how old they are. Doing this... looks like it's going to be a lot more expensive than we thought - particularly setting up a good rack system for the babies once they hatch. I’ve also been looking at our monthly gecko food bills - which our friend contributes very occasionally to with regards to her original two geckos (and I've told her not to worry about the sand boas for the time being, since I breed my own mice)

Some of what I'm saying below is what I plan to send to our friend - does it sound like I'm being fair?

I’ve just been pricing out what we need in order to get the incubator and a rack for the babies set up properly. We want to ensure that we have good eggs that hatch into healthy babies that we can keep in separate cricket boxes until we’re sure they’re feeding and to make sure nobody loses their tails, then shift to small same-genetics groups in shoebox tubs.

It looks like we’re looking at an outlay of between £90 and £120 to do the rack and incubator properly – heating equipment, thermostat equipment, building materials, shoebox tubs and ideally a router to cut grooves so that we can have heat from underneath rather than from the back - belly heat will be easier to regulate, especially as it gets warmer. Food bills for the geckos as a whole is coming out to about £20 a month – which will go up when the babies hatch to about £30-£35 per month until the majority of the hatchlings that aren’t “keepers” are sold.

Based on that, I’m not sure that a straight 50/50 split on the hatchlings (or profits from the hatchlings) would be quite fair – because my partner and I would be seriously out of pocket on the equipment on the one hand and for the food bills on the other – and the day-to-day and week-to-week upkeep on everyone. I think there’s two possibilities we can look at as far as it goes.

The first option would be to go 50/50 on everything – expenses as well as profits – so that we’d each pay half of the setup costs on getting the baby rack and incubator built (we’ll build ‘em, though – I like doing that sort of thing!) and half of the breeding geckos’ and hatchling food bills each month. Then the babies and/or profits from the babies would be split evenly by halves because we’ve each made equal outlays (not counting me getting the girls into breeding size and condition – that would have happened anyway).

There’s a couple of ways we could do that, too:

- By numbers of babies (something like “first one of this morph is mine to keep or sell, second one of this morph is yours to keep or sell, first one of that morph is yours, second one of that morph is mine” and so on. In this case we need to agree on what happens if there’s an odd number of a given morph and what happens if hatchlings fail to thrive).
- By selecting equal numbers and values of individual keepers first (which could later be sold by either of us individually), then selling the rest jointly and dividing the profits 50/50.
- By selecting individual and specific keepers, selling the rest jointly, then working out how much the ‘keepers’ would have sold for based on what we actually sold the same-morph equivalents for and finally by counting the ‘individual keeper’ price as part of the ‘sale price’ and dividing that by half, with whoever’s keepers subtracted from their half of the proceeds.

The other option is for my partner and I to pay for the hatchling rack and the incubator out of our pockets and to continue to pay for the majority of the geckos’ monthly food bills as well – and for us to have a different split on the hatchlings/profits. This could also be done in a couple of different ways:

- We get to choose four or five hatchlings from the entire hatch this year as future breeding stock so that we can recoup our investment in the long run. If Tii proved to be het albino, at least one of these and likely more than one would be Mack Albinos with the goal of producing Mack Super Albinos next year; failing that we’d be deliberately choosing a male and a group of female Mack het Albino and/or Het Blizzard. After our breeding stock keepers had been chosen, we would then split the remainder of the hatchlings/profits as the three options above, 50/50.
- We select keepers as one of the 50/50 options above, then sell off the rest of the babies. Then we add up our total costs in “producing saleable babies” – incubator setup cost, baby rack setup cost, feed costs – and that’s returned to us before we do a 50/50 split of the remainder.

Of course, once the rack’s set up, it’ll be ready for future years’ breeding.

In all cases, I think it’s probably a good idea to keep all babies until they can be visually sexed, are guaranteed good feeders and thriving. We’ve also got to keep in mind that this year ordinary Mack Snows (guaranteed hets or otherwise) are likely to be selling for around £40-£60 each – because there is an actual shop selling them for £69.99 now. We can’t count on getting more than that for any given Mack baby – nor can we count on getting even that much for sure.

Any advice, opinions and information would be much appreciated - keeping in mind that I'd really like to keep my best friend... and that if it comes down to an even 50/50 split and we eat the costs of the equipment OR we lose our friend... we'll eat the costs.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If I'm sending off animals for breeding loans, I only request 25% of the offspring. I'm not houseing or feeding the breeding animals, so I think it's fair to work it out that way.

I have 3 high-end female Leopard Gecko out on breeding loan right now, the other breeder & I will be taking turns picking offspring from the clutches.

 

[snakemom1961]

Of the 3 choices I'd think the easiest would be to split everything. from equipment to the sale of the babies down the middle. But you will have the argument, If I'm paying half the equipment then I want use of it for my own and not just for the clutches we agreed upon. I'm not sure that in itself would be a great deal, but whatever you and your partner choose to do......GOOD LUCK TO YOU BOTH!

 

[Joejr14]

I disagree with the equipment. You breeding loan partner should not be responsible for half of the equipment, unless you're going to send him half of an incubator when the breeding loan is over.

This is just a cost of doing business. You stated that you jerryrigged an incubator last year and it caused you problems, so I'm sure that you would have upgraded this year whether or not you were using the mack male snow gecko.

You also cannot expect the person contributing a male to split the feeding costs of all of your animals with you, either. If you want him to pay the food bill for his male, that is one thing, but I don't see how you can ask him to pay a portion for the females.

Secondly....or maybe it's thirdly, I've NEVER understood this 50/50 split crap. It makes zero sense to me. Why in the world would someone who has 6 females have to split a clutch 50/50 with someone who is contributing one male? I just don't get that. It's one thing if someone has an elaborate breeding loan setup with multiple animals swaping around, but if someone is sending one male---I really don't think they're entitled to more than 25%. Of course, if you've already agreed upon the 50/50 split than it's a moot point, but I've just never really understood this idea that lending out a male on breeding loan entitles someone to a 50/50 split of the hatchlings. The person with the females has done ALL the work in getting that female up to breeding size, invested the 3 or so years to get it to that size---and it's the female that takes the punishment during the breeding and laying season. The risk to the male is tiny compared to the risk of egg binding or sudden death for any number of reasons.

So I suppose in conclusion---you are building the incubator and rack for yourselves to use this year, and in the future. You should not and cannot expect your friend and breeding parter to contribute anything to that cost. You cannot have your friend and breeding parter contribute to the feeding costs of your females---his male is fine. I would personally try for something better than 50/50, but that one is up to you.

 

[SaulsMom]

Although I have zip zero nada experience with breeding loans in the Herp world, I have to say that at first blush I'm agreeing with Joe.

The equipment is yours and your interest in getting to a healthy and workable arrangement for future hatchlings is admirable, but it's the cost of doing business successfully with good feedback from buyers. I see that as capital improvement, not really part of this breeding loan.

And if your friend is going to take ownership of the babies from this breeding, is your friend going to be boarding them at your place? Doesn't that increase your overhead, having someone else's reptiles taking up space? :shrugs:

Whatever you plan to do, please see if you can get to an arrangement in writing. Verbal agreements are really hard to deal with. (Speaking here as one who has had to -- gulp -- repossess a horse from a verbal arrangement gone wrong. One more horse was NOT what we needed, thank you very much.)

Good luck.

Wishing you healthy moms and healthy babies,

SaulsMom

 

[Ssthisto]

Of the 3 choices I'd think the easiest would be to split everything. from equipment to the sale of the babies down the middle. But you will have the argument, If I'm paying half the equipment then I want use of it for my own and not just for the clutches we agreed upon. I'm not sure that in itself would be a great deal, but whatever you and your partner choose to do......GOOD LUCK TO YOU BOTH!

Snakemom: There's a moderately good chance that the best friend in question will be moving in with us at some point (I sort of neglected to mention she is our girlfriend in addition to 'that girl who's housing geckos and snakes with us and owns the Mack snow we've bred our females to') - in which case, she will be entitled to use the 'facilities' for her clutches - of whatever species - as well. To be completely honest, if she bought an adult female gecko right now that had been quarantined appropriately prior to purchase and wanted to use her with the Mack male - and to use the housing/incubation setup we had shares in - I wouldn't say no. Heck, if she brought in a clutch of eggs from god-knows-what, as long as it can be incubated at leopard gecko temperatures, I'd go along with it if she's responsible for what hatches out.

Conversely, if things went pear-shaped and we no longer had any relationship after this year, and she HAD paid for half of the equipment setup as per the first 50/50 option, we'd reimburse her for her half. However, at that point... she'd also need to be looking at rehousing her animals, since three out of the four geckos are in my vivaria, half of the snakes are housed in tubs I've provided and all her animals are currently using my heating equipment and thermostats.

I disagree with the equipment. You breeding loan partner should not be responsible for half of the equipment, unless you're going to send him half of an incubator when the breeding loan is over.

This is just a cost of doing business. You stated that you jerryrigged an incubator last year and it caused you problems, so I'm sure that you would have upgraded this year whether or not you were using the mack male snow gecko.

That is, if we'd bred many geckos at all. I did mention I would have bred maybe half of the total number of females - and building the incubator, yes, is not so much a problem - we've got much of the equipment for this and it's just getting it set up.

It's the rack for the babies (if I'm going to be raising up six geckos' worth of offspring this year) that is the major expense outlay - if I were only raising up three girls' worth, I could shuffle my snake rack around and have space for babies - especially since I'd be breeding animals who don't need to be separated by het genetics (visual blizzard het albino male to albino het blizzard female, albino female and blizzard female = I know that any normal babies are het albino and blizzard, any albino babies are het blizzard and any blizzard babies are possible het albino).

You also cannot expect the person contributing a male to split the feeding costs of all of your animals with you, either. If you want him to pay the food bill for his male, that is one thing, but I don't see how you can ask him to pay a portion for the females.

Ok, that's a fair enough point, though we're also housing other animals on her behalf, including snakes which she is not allowed to have at home and even if she chose to move the geckos she'd still have to board them with us. She actually owns a quarter of the leopard geckos I've got in this house - two males and two subadult females

The idea of adding in feed for the females while the geckos are producing eggs was on the basis that without my adult, breeding age, proven females - with the genetics they have - her male would have been completely redundant this year. She does not own any adult female geckos and she very much wanted to breed Tii this year specifically to obtain Mack snows at least het for albino, Macks het for blizzard (and through one female, Macks at least het for albino and possible het blizzard) and possibly Mack Ghosts. It also offered her the opportunity to test if he was genuinely het for albino.

She certainly wouldn't be splitting the feeding costs of all our animals - there's still my tegu, six legless lizards, one crested gecko, two adult male leopard geckos and three baby geckos, seven corn snakes, my three rat snakes, two rainbow boas, one and a half sand boas* and the mice that I've been breeding and using to feed to her sand boas - which my partner and I would still of course be solely responsible for.

But I do take your point and I'll consider that before I actually e-mail her anything. Then again... I think I'm going to need to keep a tally of exactly how much the animals she is housing with us are eating, and other using-my-equipment-and-space-so-I-can't-use-it-for-any-animals-I-want issues.

Secondly....or maybe it's thirdly, I've NEVER understood this 50/50 split crap. It makes zero sense to me. Why in the world would someone who has 6 females have to split a clutch 50/50 with someone who is contributing one male?

So really we're talking at the same point - that 50/50 doesn't sound right regardless of WHY that amount doesn't sound right. I'm saying "equipment and feeding costs" and you're saying "you own the females and you're doing the work." Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Although I have zip zero nada experience with breeding loans in the Herp world, I have to say that at first blush I'm agreeing with Joe.

The equipment is yours and your interest in getting to a healthy and workable arrangement for future hatchlings is admirable, but it's the cost of doing business successfully with good feedback from buyers. I see that as capital improvement, not really part of this breeding loan.

And if your friend is going to take ownership of the babies from this breeding, is your friend going to be boarding them at your place? Doesn't that increase your overhead, having someone else's reptiles taking up space? :shrugs:

Yes, I suspect that any babies that she chooses - in whatever scenario - would be housed with us until and unless she chose to move them. Yes, it does increase the overhead, and it certainly does mean that there's space that I'd LIKE to use that I can't right now. But if she's sharing in the expenses and actually paying her animals' way, this isn't as much of a hardship as it might otherwise be.

As for the equipment... I'd LIKE for it to be OUR shared equipment - my partner's, hers and mine - on the idea that it would be a long term relationship both with regards to the breeding stock and with regards to the ... rest of the relationship. I'd like to be able to buy an unrelated Mack male that WE (the three of us) can use on the female Mack keepers next year.

Whatever you plan to do, please see if you can get to an arrangement in writing. Verbal agreements are really hard to deal with. (Speaking here as one who has had to -- gulp -- repossess a horse from a verbal arrangement gone wrong. One more horse was NOT what we needed, thank you very much.)

Very good point. I'll be sure to get it set out in writing before we have anything hatch out.

* Twist your mind around owning one and a half sand boas as you may - or I'll tell you: there is one sand boa which she has paid for in full herself. That's hers. There is an adult 1.1 pair of sand boas which we purchased together, and there is an adult male sand boa we purchased together. By our count, that's three shared animals - which makes one and a half mine. We've already discussed and agreed that if any of them were to leave, my partner and I would be keeping the two adult males as ideal animals for classroom displays, since I don't have any real desire personally to breed sand boas. She would be taking her juvenile male and the adult female, who would make an unrelated pair, since she does want to breed sand boas.

 

[cornspot]

When I did a snake breeding loan, I was given the female to breed, house & feed till we could meet back up. We split 50-50 but I picked out who got which babies.