executive order 3/16/2012

[Nova_C]

Last time I checked, birth control also wasn't used JUST to prevent babies, but also treat other things like unusually heavy periods, severe cramping, endometriosis, and a whole host of other things.

The problem with framing the debate like this is:

http://news.yahoo.com/ariz-bill-could-require-reason-birth-control-045830034.html

So now the government wants to force women to allow employers access to their medical files so that employers can choose whether or not a prescription for birth control is justified. The doctor's opinion? Irrelevant. The woman's opinion? Irrelevant.

This also totally ignores the fact that employer provided insurance is part of the compensation for services rendered. Like, now the Republican party wants to allow employers to tell employers how they can spend their money and that they are not allowed to spend it on anything that violates the moral center of the employer.

The end result is literally the end of employer insurance. "This company follows the moral code of Christian Scientists and as such any medical procedure is against or belief of prayer and so our insurance covers no procedures or prescriptions." Even if the employer isn't a Christian Scientist, it's a "get out of paying for insurance free" card.

 

[Christen]

That appears to be your penis and your "I will never have to worry about being pregnant and the possibly fatal complications" talking. Congrats on being a budding misogynist. How come guys can sleep around all they want, and are lauded, but a woman who does the same thing is a slut or whore? It's none of your business and has no bearing on this situation if I have sex once a year or five times a day.

And bull about "fairly inconsistent". Over half of all abortions are due to failure of a birth control form, either pill or condom or diaphragm, etc.

The vast majority of abortions occur in the first trimester. So do miscarriages. Guess that makes the woman's body evil and approving of her being a slut, right?

I am one who birth control fail 4 TIMES. The pill failed and had miscarriage at 12 weeks pregnant. Depo failed that is now my 7 year old daughter. IUD Failed that is now my 4 year old daughter. Tubal ligation failed I lost that pregnancy at 18 weeks. These were all with the same man and we did not want to have kids ever however we did decide that we couldn't have an abortion I would be pissed under these circumstances I would not been able to make that choice for myself.

What about Arizona?

How does this have anything to do with Tsst's post? Just like the birth control hot button. It seems to me that we were excited to have another political debate.

 

[Lennycorn]

It's a long read but in short would give the gov power to take over everything under the guise of national defense. Food, water, industry, transport, work force, farms, livestock, even tractors, etc, etc, etc!

Welcome to the Communist States of America!

Can't wait until Israel attacks Iran and the world oil supply is cut by 40% with the closure of the strait. National defense is sighted to be in jeopardy and this is enacted. Get out your ration stamps to buy your 10 gallons @ $10/gal and your $12 carton of milk.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...order-national-defense-resources-preparedness

yeah,,,it's getting kinda scary, isn't it!!

 

[BooBoo18]

I believe in pro choice, owning a gun, same sex unions and no death penalty. I also read that they are developing a birth control pill for guys..... I wonder really how many guys would take it.

I think having an abortion can be a responsible act....

In regards to the EO I found a good article from the Huffington Press on it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin...defense-resources-preparedness_b_1359715.html

 

[ratsncorns]

I just think its funny how ironic it is that those opposed to BC and women's general health, are 99% men. If not 100%. (Referring to those in office trying to pass this insanity).This is why Im getting the essure procedure done, because the way things are going, its going to be illegal for women to get sterilized and obtain BC, but ok for men to get vasectomies, wear condoms, and get viagra.

 

[Michael823]

I just think its funny how ironic it is that those opposed to BC and women's general health, are 99% men. If not 100%. (Referring to those in office trying to pass this insanity).This is why Im getting the essure procedure done, because the way things are going, its going to be illegal for women to get sterilized and obtain BC, but ok for men to get vasectomies, wear condoms, and get viagra.

Yup! It's really a power struggle of "us" versus "them" when a religious issue is confronted with a more logical understanding (just as I've observed). That's why these primitive and basic rights are still being fought in 2012, because these are the latest core issues in religion that have been exploited as unreasonable (and unfairly bias).

Also sad that enough one-mindedness exists that you have to add the 'Pro' in front of "pro-choice", as though you have to proclaim that decision making is acceptable or not... To me, women's health is the new version of a woman's right to vote, or to divorce, or to work, etc... and a large majority of those passing the laws (or governing society) back then still look (and sound) the same. Which is why it's hard for women (and other marginalized groups) to receive true freedom and equality, because every 'higher-up' or decision maker is 'coincidentally' a male (among other specifics).

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Well, I want to post regarding the OP before gallivanting off into the depths of off-topic debate this thread has become. Unfortunately, I don't really have a good grasp of a lot of what's going on in that link due to some of the language, so I'll have to rely on the "layman's translations" provided in previous posts.

That being said...

In a crisis or defense situation where everyone is in a heightened state of panic, I don't think I would mind a level-headed organization (our government, and the agencies it has entrusted) taking control of our... well... everything. I'd trust a locally controlled, or even across the country, set of standards and rationing set forth by government agencies than I would store owners gouging their prices to take advantage of people who believe the world is ending because some conspiracy group claims to have irrefutable proof. (That's probably not the best example because of it's heavy base in entirely implausible events, but hey, it could happen!)


And now onto the "rest" of the thread.

Never said that. Geez you liberals are some good and shoving words into my mouth. The keyword is careless. Women who carelessly, have sex. Men are just as bad and just as responsible, but last time I checked, we don't carry the child.

So it's the woman's fault for having a uterus. That makes perfect sense, it really does. In fact, it makes about as much sense as someone saying that being gay is a choice.

Under some of your views, I find this one (as do many others) quite a bit flawed: where's the responsibility for the men? If a woman miscarries, she can be considered a murderer; if she dies due to complications from the pregnancy, can the father then be considered a murderer, given that he directly contributed to the factor leading to her death? Oh no, that's right. He doesn't have a uterus. It's impossible to blame him.

 

[ceduke]

I can't rep you Robbie...but thank you.

 

[Christen]

I got it

 

[Michael823]

So it's the woman's fault for having a uterus. That makes perfect sense, it really does. In fact, it makes about as much sense as someone saying that being gay is a choice.

Under some of your views, I find this one (as do many others) quite a bit flawed: where's the responsibility for the men? If a woman miscarries, she can be considered a murderer; if she dies due to complications from the pregnancy, can the father then be considered a murderer, given that he directly contributed to the factor leading to her death? Oh no, that's right. He doesn't have a uterus. It's impossible to blame him.

Yeah, it's absolutely the woman's fault for having a uterus. I also can not believe single mother's either?!?... How dare they go against god's will and create bastard children by themselves... lol.

I might add... there is no such thing as true responsibility for men. That's why I find the religious aspect such an UN-flattering fantasy that's UN-parallel to real life (at times).

*off topic* I was raised by a single mother, so I was always learning from the perspective of how a woman is able to get by in this world independently. And watching how most men treat most women, you notice a clear line of unequal treatment of women from men in this society. Lesser pay, lower job ranking, higher responsibility, inappropriate advances and abusive and controlling behavior towards them, etc... these are just issues that life through the generalized and characterized male (and/or religious) perspective can't understand.

That's why 'choice' is the main word. No one needs a critic, or approval to make a decision. Life is not as easy as playing it out for other people through your own experience. Some people are faced with life altering decisions without warning or responsibility for it, and who are religious groups or a male dominated society to say that women (or anyone) are incapable of making life's decisions for themselves.

*off topic again* But Michael J. Fox was on Piers Morgan the other night. And although I've really never given him the time (as I really didn't know much of his political ideals), I was really moved by his interview. I feel like he's a very strong voice for another group of marginalized people (the disabled), who are also often the target of, not only belittling, prejudice, viewed as 2nd class citizens, etc... but are also at the mercy of the fanatical religious conservatives ability to take stem-cell research off the table.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

*off topic again* But Michael J. Fox was on Piers Morgan the other night. And although I've really never given him the time (as I really didn't know much of his political ideals), I was really moved by his interview. I feel like he's a very strong voice for another group of marginalized people (the disabled), who are also often the target of, not only belittling, prejudice, viewed as 2nd class citizens, etc... but are also at the mercy of the fanatical religious conservatives ability to take stem-cell research off the table.

*more :-offtopic *
Did you hear what Rush Limbaugh was saying about him, and how he was "faking" the extremes of his condition during that one commercial? I couldn't believe my ears. Of all of the insensitive things he could possibly (and frequently does) say, why did Michael J. Fox have to bear the brunt of his wrath so soon after his controversial "slut speech"? It's almost like he's asking to be fired. But if he's not, then he's probably the world's best troll.

 

[Carinata]

I can clearly see I cannot have this debate with you people as words are being put in my mouth and I won't tolerate it. By the way I was raised by a single mother who opposes abortion, if that means anything.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I can clearly see I cannot have this debate with you people as words are being put in my mouth and I won't tolerate it. By the way I was raised by a single mother who opposes abortion, if that means anything.

Can you please cite exactly where someone did that to you? From everything I've seen, everybody has been interpreting your words the same way. If that's the case, perhaps you need to alter your wording so we have a better understanding of what you're trying to convey? :shrugs:

 

[Carinata]

I never said it's womens fault for having a uterus. I never said sex was bad. I never said men were innocent. That's the issue with forums, your wording can be interpreted however the reader wants to interpret it. No wonder I do much better in verbal debates as opposed to text LOL

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I never said it's womens fault for having a uterus.
Did you read the last bolded section I quoted from you? You must have, considering you wrote it. You said that men are just as bad and irresponsible, but because they don't carry the child, they can't be blamed for anything. So while you didn't directly state that it's the woman's fault for having a uterus, you did state that the fault and blame lie entirely with them in the event of an unwanted pregnancy because of a choice that isn't theirs. They cannot choose whether or not they have a uterus (without drastic surgery).
I never said sex was bad.
Agreed.
I never said men were innocent.
No, you did not. You did, however, imply that there's no way we could prosecute them, or punish them in any way as nearly as severe as what you're trying to impose on women who become unexpectedly pregnant due to a birth control failure. The men get of Scott free, because they're not the ones carrying the child. All they did was shoot and go. They don't have to make the same investment in the creation of a new life than a woman does, so the punishment for them shouldn't be nearly as severe. There IS legislation in place that could deem a woman who has a miscarriage as a murderess. There is NO such legislation in place that could declare a man a murderer for the death of a woman due to complications from pregnancy. No, it's not directly proportional, but the principle remains the same. I merely provided an example of the unfair sexism created by ultra-conservative men currently pushing forth legislation like this.
That's the issue with forums, your wording can be interpreted however the reader wants to interpret it. No wonder I do much better in verbal debates as opposed to text LOL

The only issue with wording interpretation is when you don't present your view and opinions in a clear manner. It's really not that hard to take an extra minute or two to make sure that your words can't be misconstrued. Do you have any idea how many times I read and reread my debate posts from different viewpoints to make sure that I'm being as clear as possible?
I don't understand why you think we can't have a debate. I thought both sides were being quite civil. :shrugs:

You'll have to pardon me if I don't respond for a while; I just got home from work, and wanted to at least give one response before I went to bed.

 

[Carinata]

Well, Robbie. Again I was called a bigot, which really offends me and completely misrepresents what I stand for. You're right, I do need to work on re-reading my posts more to avoid any issue. Allow me to define my stance.

I fully support abortion in cases of rape, incest, or where birth would pose a fatal risk to the mother.

I do not believe abortion should be used as a means of birth control. I feel like the system is abused in this country, and it needs to be reformed. Over half of the women that have abortions have had 1-3+ previous abortions.

There is nothing wrong with birth control, and I have no issue with it's use. I do however have an issue with the use of abortion as birth control.

I feel like we have a lot of irresponsible men and women in this country that use abortion as birth control. Even though men don't carry the baby, I have heard of cases where men pressure women into having abortions.

 

[Nanci]

You tell me what's responsible about letting careless people terminate pregnancies just because they couldn't keep their legs shut.

Do you plan on having sex before you get married, David?

 

[Carinata]

Do you plan on having sex before you get married, David?

Yes. And I've already crossed that bridge LOL. I guess what I was trying to say was, it's the careless people that use abortion as a means of birth control, that really upset me.

 

[Christen]

But you are really being careless by having sex, period. Birth Control is not a guarantee. So you really can't judge others for doing just what you have.

 

[Nanci]

Also, you are basically saying that unless you want a child you should never have sex. What if I don't want kids at all? What if the risks associated with being pregnant scare me? What if I'm married, and still don't want kids and have that fear. Are you telling me I should NEVER sleep with my husband?

What if you are a woman in her 20's, or even her 30's, who doesn't EVER want children, for WHATEVER personal reasons? Try finding a doctor who will perform sterilization. Good luck with that!