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Finally PICTURES!!

Given the contradictions just made, I’d say my work here is done.

E. g. guttata said:
So now I'm an expert because I have had no problems with corns my first try, according to you ;).
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Egg, you’re the only one who believes that statement to be true. You're a legend in your own mind! :roflmao:
 
Let's see. Ummm. CRAP! LOL, that's great. Anyways, I just realized after I posted that I probably shouldn't have gotten into a debate with you. Seriously, you took a debate class (or 50). But I don't see much of a flaw in my thinking (which may, in reality, be the problem, which is why I ask for debates like these all the time).

I think that someone who has never had a problem with any number of snakes for any given time is not as experienced as another who has had problems. Your contention is that they might be more adept, but I still don't. To support your statement, you state that husbandry practices and problems are not a good indicator of experience. I clarify to say that the correction of problems is the important part. You go on to state that a person might try to stop all problems before they start, and quote a specific instant in a series of experiments to get people safely to and from the moon. In this case, that would equate into me being an expert because I am successful in keeping my first snakes. I continue to argue that you did not take the whole Appolo mission into account, as I keep taking the whole of everything, the snakes, the years, the problems, and the corrections. I guess I'm just missing the point. Please explain so my mind is not hurting anymore. LOL.
 
babyblueeyes, your female snake is NOT A CORN! She is a hybrid which is called a jungle corn, JUNGLE CORN. You can not drop off the jungle part at your leisure b/c a jungle corn is a hybrid, a corn is a pure snake.

I am just concerned that you are no fully understanding what a hybrid is.

When your babies hatch, I urge you to be upfront about the parents, they unpureness of them and urge your buyers not to breed the babies.
 
i could be wrong about this but it seams that Babyblue, just doesn't care if her snake is a hybrid or not so how about everybody just drop that part of the subject?
 
Well, I can answer that . . .

I think the reason for the concern regarding Babyblueeyes breeding her jungle corn, which is a hybrid, with a corn is that the babies will look like they are 100% corn and they are not. So what happens when down the line one person has got one of those babies, thinks it's a regular corn and breeds it? OR what happens if someone gets 2 of her snakes, doesn't realize they are hybrids, breeds them and gets some VERY strange results? What happens if they breed them and sell the babies out into the pet stores, people buy the babies and raise them and breed them with other snakes that look like corns but are actually only 75% cause one of the parents was a hybrid? Again, they are likely to end up with rather un-corn results.

Now, the problem isn't that folks discriminate against hybrids, the problem is that this is happening too much. Sheesh, I have had 2 pet stores now tell me that creamsicles are pure corns (they aren't). The more people are buying and breeding hybrids without knowing what they are (out of ignorance) could slowly but surely wipe out the CB corn population. We could end up with a huge mess of conglomerations of who knows what all bred together to form some sort of mutt snakes. Now, if it's a good pet, okay, why not? Well, for one thing all the work that many people have done trying to understand the genetics for different colors and patterns in corns would become worthless, who knows what would be cropping up with these mutt snakes? And eventually nobody could be sure what was a pure corn anymore and what's not.

Snakes cannot be neutered. Snakes don't come with a piece of paper ID'ing their lineage. It is up to people who breed them to keep the corn lines 100%, or take pains to make sure buyers of their hybrids understand the implications of breeding them, or risk mutating the entire population.

I think that Babyblueeyes went into this without realizing her corn was a hybrid, or the implications of breeding her. And I don't think that she should be bashed for that, had I not done a lot of research, that could have been me buying a creamsicle to breed with my normal male. Ignorance is bliss . . . LOL . . . but I do think she should take ULTRA responsibility in finding homes for those babies where they will not ever reproduce. And the new owners need to understand why they should not ever breed these snakes. And if Babyblueeyes wants to continue breeding she should endeavor to breed corn/corn or hybrid/hybrid, and do a LOT more research 1st.

So I'd guess that's why it's not just being dropped . . .
 
here is the problem go to this thread I dont know how to make a link so here is the title of the thread . this is what Katt ,pep-82 and me are trying to avoid happing go to this thread.

Wht kind of corn is this? it is in The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues
 
i do care! i know my snake is a hybrid when did i say i didnt care if it was or wasent a hybrid?!?!? if you dont know what the heck your talking about then dont say anything! I do under stand my snake is a hybrid i BOUGHT the snake as a hybrid and WILL LABLE the damn babies as hybrids!!! the babies will turn out to be 75% corn and 25% king! this is for my own damn experience, they are my corns and choose to do whatever the heck i want to do with them. when i get a pet i research as much as possible about them so i do know damn well what my snake is all about and what kind it is so dont tell me i dont care if they are hybrids or not! :twoguns: You guys breed your corns however the heck you want but by me (1 person out of billions and millions of breeders) breeding my snakes and selling the babies to family members isent going to make a life threating change in the corn population! dont go bashing at me because i decide to breed my corns for my own experience. im not no damn professional breeder who breeds snakes and sells them to petstores. Its not like im going to breed my snakes every year and sell them to petstores. just to let you guys know that me and joe have talked about this already im not freaking dumb, if my snake is a hybrid i will label their offspring as hybrids now where will the confusion come along?? thats the bottom line! Im not arguing about this anymore, my main question was if my snake was gravid or not! i dont understand where this hybrid argument came a long!!
 
Bluebeard said:
i could be wrong about this but it seams that Babyblue, just doesn't care if her snake is a hybrid or not so how about everybody just drop that part of the subject?
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K i'm officaly apologize for this statement i should not said this and it was miss understood, so i'm sorry to BabyBlueEyes and everybody eles on the forum.
 
BabyBlueEyes said:
i do care! i know my snake is a hybrid when did i say i didnt care if it was or wasent a hybrid?!?!? if you dont know what the heck your talking about then dont say anything! I do under stand my snake is a hybrid i BOUGHT the snake as a hybrid and WILL LABLE the damn babies as hybrids!!! the babies will turn out to be 75% corn and 25% king! this is for my own damn experience, they are my corns and choose to do whatever the heck i want to do with them. when i get a pet i research as much as possible about them so i do know damn well what my snake is all about and what kind it is so dont tell me i dont care if they are hybrids or not! :twoguns: You guys breed your corns however the heck you want but by me (1 person out of billions and millions of breeders) breeding my snakes and selling the babies to family members isent going to make a life threating change in the corn population! dont go bashing at me because i decide to breed my corns for my own experience. im not no damn professional breeder who breeds snakes and sells them to petstores. Its not like im going to breed my snakes every year and sell them to petstores. just to let you guys know that me and joe have talked about this already im not freaking dumb, if my snake is a hybrid i will label their offspring as hybrids now where will the confusion come along?? thats the bottom line! Im not arguing about this anymore, my main question was if my snake was gravid or not! i dont understand where this hybrid argument came a long!!
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I think your snake is preggy. I hope the babies turn out to be purdy. :)
 
BabyBlueEyes said:
i do care! i know my snake is a hybrid when did i say i didnt care if it was or wasent a hybrid?!?!? if you dont know what the heck your talking about then dont say anything! I do under stand my snake is a hybrid i BOUGHT the snake as a hybrid and WILL LABLE the damn babies as hybrids!!!
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How are you going to lable the "damn babies" as hybrids? With a sharpie? How are you going to guarantee that for the entire lives of these little snakes you bring into the world anyone who EVER owns them will know they are hybrids? BTW, these are hypothetical questions, for YOU to think about, so you don't need to bother to explain to me. I happen to know that a 15 (+/-)year lifespan for a snake is a long time, and lots of things can happen that you wouldn't expect now.

I'm sorry that I tried to explain why people are upset about you breeding your hybrid to a corn. I'm sorry that I thought you had bred your snakes by mistake. I certainly didn't mean to offend you. So, I am going to bow out of this conversation now . . . Good luck with your babies, I hope everything goes well! :wavey:
 
HI blue eyes its vinny all I was trying to tell you and you got mad. You misunderstood what I was trying to tell you. All I was saying is that the next time you breed your jungle breed to some other cross so the babies dont look like any pure species . find out from the breeder what tpye of king was used in the in the cross. so you can match it up to some total diffrent I even gave you a few exp of diffrent crosses that you can use . I think I was very helpful.
there was no reason to snip at me cause I told Katt that I tryed to worn you .
I'm saying the same thing peep-827 is thease snakes will live a long time you dont know where they will end up . and you may have more snakes than homes to put them in . If you get out of the hobby what happens to those snakes . You wont care when you are out of the hobby where they go or who they will be bred to and what the babies will look like. I'm not saying you are a bad person it's just human nature. I'm glad that you will produce some young this year .
We all wish you good luck .
 
The problem with all these anti-hybrid arguments is that they always hinge on the OPINION that hybrids are bad or inferior. This OPINION is always stated as if it is a fact, which is untrue. It also usually involves "backing up" such an opinion by throwing around epithets like "mutt."

Starting with the OPINION that Hunt Club Okeetees are "superior" to all other corns, I can use the same line of logic to draw conclusions that anyone who breeds anything other than "pure okeetees" is bad and is going to "ruin" the population with their mutts, and all the other doomsday stories these threads inevitably drag up.

People will breed what they like. If the genes brought into the pool by hybridization are "bad" then by definition those genes will be culled out. If they are "good" then by definition they will be incorporated into the pool. It will not result in every cornsnake exploding on a cellular level someday because someone did not know that their snake had "impure" ancestry. Hybridization cannot "ruin" our captive population of corns. It is, by definition, impossible for that to happen.
 
Now I shall open myself up for the flaming. I own an albino jungle female. There was a question on the photo gallery as to what everyone thought she was from the previous owner, and it was determined she was a jungle. I thought she was gorgeous, and bought her. She is in my avatar. She's a big girl, 31", and I'm almost sure she will be ready to breed next year.

I am gathering a collection of corns to breed and sell as a hobby in a few years. I do not own any other jungles. I have an amel male that has extremely deep red and very little white that I am planning to breed with my jungle girl to see how his coloring affects the babies. I am doing this not to introduce "impure" corns to the hobby. I am going to do it as a learning experience before the others in my collection become breeding size and age.

They will be sold (or given as pets to friends) as HYBRIDS. Amel x albino jungle (cal king cross). Will I feel bad about this? Absolutely not. As Baby Blue says, they are my snakes, and I will do with them as I please. As well as whomever the prospective owners may do. If you don't like hybrids, don't buy them, simple as that.

I will add, that I have seen breeders (who shall remain nameless) selling their snakes as "pure corns" and then in the fine print listing the pairing that produced them as ex: "snow x creamsicle". How is that pure? Without knowing that creamsicles are hybrids, people buy them assuming they are pure and breed them, and sell the babies as pure. They aren't. If you don't want impure corns in your collection, ask questions before you buy, or breed your own, but don't take extreme offense to someone who wants or has bred hybrids to their corns. It is their right to do so. JMO
 
Serpwidgets said:
People will breed what they like. If the genes brought into the pool by hybridization are "bad" then by definition those genes will be culled out. If they are "good" then by definition they will be incorporated into the pool. It will not result in every cornsnake exploding on a cellular level someday because someone did not know that their snake had "impure" ancestry. Hybridization cannot "ruin" our captive population of corns. It is, by definition, impossible for that to happen.
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You're currently balancing on a very thin tightrope with this one Serp. I had a discussion with somone on another forum that argued that hybridization led to evolution. *Shakes head* Needless to say, after he and I finished with our discussion, the rest of the people on that board read it and it almost turned into a war. I DO agree that the desireable traits will be brought into the gene pool, to try to enhance that trait. I DO agree that undesireable traits will be gotten rid of. The problem with doing this through hybridization v. selective breeding, is that there are two completely seperate definitions between the processes. Selective breeding is a forced evolution, sort of like what the Chinese did to their own people to "purify" them and make the "perfect" Chinaman. The hybridization is what it is, taking snakes of different genetic backgrounds and producing something in between. The big problem with the two is that they are accomplising the same goal, but through completely different means. Unfortunately, there are people who see these as the same thing BECAUSE they have the same goal, but don't realize that no matter how much you "water down" a hybrid, it is still a hybrid. most people have seen the picture of my little hybrid, and most thought he was pure. The scary reality for some folks is that he is a hybrid, and all his offspring will be hybrids, as well as their offspring, and so on down the line. Some people won't view it as a big deal, because his first offspring will be 3.125% emoryi, so there really isn't a lot of influence from that side of the family, but the fact is that he has emoryi in his background, and is therefore no longer elligible to contribute his genes towards an evolution, just more hybridization.

Asside from the whole "changing of the gene pool aspect" though, it would almost be entertaining to see if something could blow up because of "impure" roots.
 
E. g. guttata said:
I had a discussion with somone on another forum that argued that hybridization led to evolution. *Shakes head*
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Heh. No, it can be a part of changes, because branches can diverge/converge. But I agree, it's by no means the driving force behind evolution.

The hybridization is what it is, taking snakes of different genetic backgrounds and producing something in between. The big problem with the two is that they are accomplising the same goal, but through completely different means.
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This is true when you cross a corn from New Jersey with a corn from the upper Keys. If a new mutant gene appears in the populations at one end of their range, it would take much more than our own lifetimes for this mutant to reach the other end of the range by "natural" means. In effect, by crossing two corns that you find desireable, unless you are paying specific attention to localities of all of their wild ancestors and crossing only things from very close origins, you are hybridizing in order to produce new genetic combinations that do not exist in the wild populations.

no matter how much you "water down" a hybrid, it is still a hybrid. most people have seen the picture of my little hybrid, and most thought he was pure.
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You cannot apply this only to captive populations while ignoring the wild populations. Since corns and emoryi share a common ancestor, they're all impure. Since there is intergradation and hybridization in the wild populations, the only safe assumption is that all wild corns are just watered down hybrids. ;)

Some people won't view it as a big deal, because his first offspring will be 3.125% emoryi, so there really isn't a lot of influence from that side of the family, but the fact is that he has emoryi in his background, and is therefore no longer elligible to contribute his genes towards an evolution, just more hybridization.
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I disagree with this statement. Evolution is the result of 2 factors caused by reproduction: 1- introduction of new genes, 2- selection. Selection is most definitely taking place. The introduction of new genes takes place whether you only stick with the random mutations that pop up in "pure" breedings, or whether you include new genetic material from some other gene pool, whether that be a corn from another locale, or an Emoryi, or a cal king.

You can say "it's just hybridization" but you can also say "it's just waiting around for random new mutations to pop up." The methods might be viewed as "different" but there is no yardstick by which one can be said to be "better" than the other. If a new gene occurs as a result of random mutation in "pure" lines, but it exists nowhere else in the cornsnake population, how is that gene a "pure cornsnake gene?" :shrugs:

The other thing to keep in mind is that an emoryi is not 0% pure corn. It is more like "98% pure corn." That would mean a corn X emoryi would be not "50% pure corn" but "99%." The "impurities" in the offspring of your creamsicle would (based on the above "98%" hypothetical) measure at something more like 0.0625% which would be 6.25 out of every 10,000 genes. There is a finite number of genes, and there is a point where you cannot simply keep dividing genes up and saying "it's got half an emoryi gene" in it and it's "impure." ;)
 
ok, maybe this crazyness will end coming from a noob... i was reading this thread ( dont ask me why) and i realized the question was answered.. so who cares about who said what... the snake is more then likely pregnant...drop the rest of the testosterone act...


and baby blue... i dont know because i am new... but can you close the thread, lock it i some way so this silly behavior doesnt continue.. it really was a waste of my time.. but i wanted to know if her girl was "preggy" so i read BS to get to the answer....
 
FlaStangBabe said:
ok, maybe this crazyness will end coming from a noob... i was reading this thread ( dont ask me why) and i realized the question was answered.. so who cares about who said what... the snake is more then likely pregnant...drop the rest of the testosterone act...


and baby blue... i dont know because i am new... but can you close the thread, lock it i some way so this silly behavior doesnt continue.. it really was a waste of my time.. but i wanted to know if her girl was "preggy" so i read BS to get to the answer....
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Ummm... things have kinda switched to Serp and I haveing a discussino now. But if you're that offended by the rest of th thread, I suggest you not follow this thread anymore or any thread where the names "Vinman" and "E. g. guttata" appear together. We kinda have an argumentative relationship.
 
Exactly! this is BS. i did not start this and will not be blamed for it. I will now lock this thread as i did not attend it to go out of control as it did because ppl felt they needed to tell me their opinions about my snake being a hybrid and what not. If you have a problem with hybrids thats your opinion not mine, so let me give you little advice.....keep that to yourself, i did not ask for your opinion. Im interested in this kind of hybrid and will do as i please and no one can judge or insult me of doing so. I have said what i needed to say. Like i said, i posted this thread for all you wonderful professionals to look at and to simply answer my simple question. Know that things have been said its time to end this non sense. Have a wonderful day! :wavey:
 
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