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Genetics.

Spencer

Spencer

New member
Hey guys.


I dont understand about Genetics....

Maybe someone here does.

Now, I don't want any comments about ethics or anything.....Because I do understand why there are issues, but this is more just a matter of Curiosity more than anything I would actually want to try... but maybe possibly in the future.

Corn and King Hybrids work. Is it because they are both Calubrids?

Would Corn and Hognose work for breeding purposes hypothetically?
 
There are too many factors going into any singular breeding... it's hard to get encompassing conclusions.

First, there's nothing immoral about genes or genetics- what you're referring to is Hybrids- cross breeding between different species/sub-species.

Trial and error are the only real way to know... I don't recall ever seeing such a breeding occur.
There's a relatively high infertility ratio going on when F1 of hybrids is attempted(as in, breeding the original pair, each of which is of different species). Some babies do not hatch, are stiiborn, or infertile.

But... those who ARE fertile sometimes exhibit a phenomena called "Hybrid vigor" and they end up being even more prolific than their forebearers.

The primary concern is that such hybrids are then crossed back to "pure" stock and you end up with animals that "look" pure... with enough exchange of hands(and money), you end up "contaminating" the captive population.

For instance:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133038&highlight=Tessera

These are in fact the product CornXGopher snake breedings, which later were bred back to pure corn stock... I didn't know it when I first opened that thread but... you can see that most actually agreed that these were pure Tessera corns.
 
I agree, It does pose some ethical issues, If there is a purpose to sell.

If I decided to breed Hybrids, it would be for my own pets, not for anyone else. I think Personally the traits of Both would be amazing together. And the paint Jobs I have would look amazing together.

As I said, I am not even sure I want to attempt this, and wouldnt be able to for at least another year and a bit.

Right now, I am just CURIOUS. And I also mentioned... I do understand how it is unethical to sell hybrids as anything other than Hybrids. Yet, I have seen some Jungle corns that ARE beautiful animals. I dont see a problem as long as people dont do things unethically. for Example. If I did have a clutch of Hybrids. ....Those would not go in to a pure line again.

To be Honest, I dont even think Its possible. a corn would probably look at a hognose hemipenis and laugh.
 
It's not a matter of how YOU handle the sales- but how people who buy from you and sell on.

And... well, the notion of breeding and holding back ALL the offspring? unlikely... it simply DOESN'T happen in the long run.... you might beed to cut back at some point and so on...
 
Granted. I give you that, but I wouldnt sell. If I cut back, I would give to my friends. Only people I know will be ethical about it. Not doing it for money. But i still think I could keep a full clutch.
 
You can't breed a hog nose to a cornsnake.
Unfortunately, colubrid genetics are all over the place. In class, we refer to colubridae as the "trash can taxon". Basically, if a snake doesn't fit into another family, they throw them into colubridae. Snakes are also all screwed up because typically, when you want to make a hybrid, they would have to be in the same genus. For instance, you cannot breed a fox to a dog, one is in the vulpes genus, and the other in Lupis. But with snakes, it doesn't *always* matter, like kings are lampropeltis and corns are patherophis, and they can breed and not only produce offspring, but fertile offspring at that- which also breaks rules about hybrids being infertile.

So basically what I am saying is, just because they are colubrids doesn't mean squat. :)
 
AliCat37 said:
You can't breed a hog nose to a cornsnake.
Unfortunately, colubrid genetics are all over the place. In class, we refer to colubridae as the "trash can taxon". Basically, if a snake doesn't fit into another family, they throw them into colubridae. Snakes are also all screwed up because typically, when you want to make a hybrid, they would have to be in the same genus. For instance, you cannot breed a fox to a dog, one is in the vulpes genus, and the other in Lupis. But with snakes, it doesn't *always* matter, like kings are lampropeltis and corns are patherophis, and they can breed and not only produce offspring, but fertile offspring at that- which also breaks rules about hybrids being infertile.

So basically what I am saying is, just because they are colubrids doesn't mean squat. :)
Click to expand...

If that's indeed the case, how can you know for a fact?
Weirder breedings happened- BP X Retic, BCI X Anaconda etc...
So the best answer would be...

As for taxonomy... well, it's the other way around. The fact that animals of different genus can breed doesn't break rules, it simply means that the taxonomic mapping and name are wrong and need to be adjusted. Taxonomy is supposed to represent genetic semblence based on observation and study... you can't blame nature for "breaking the rules" of a human system of definition... our initial understanding of the animal was simply wrong.
 
I would be absolutely shocked if viable eggs could come from that crossing. Any babies would seem fit for the island of Dr. Moreau. You would have a rear fanged venomous snake and a constrictor cross. I'd think you would have a better chance using a garter (even though ovoviviparous) than a corn. That said, I would never try it. And most importantly as we've seen before on this forum, you can never be sure an animal won't be bred if it leaves your collection. You can't have a discussion about such an unnatural mix and ignore the ethics involved.
 
Interesting discussion. The hybrid breeding isn't the ethical issue. There are other issues. But.... I've Googled it. I can't find any example...if that means it didn't work....or it wasnt tried.....
In anycase , again not even sure I would do it.
 
Kokopelli said:
If that's indeed the case, how can you know for a fact?
Weirder breedings happened- BP X Retic, BCI X Anaconda etc...
So the best answer would be...

As for taxonomy... well, it's the other way around. The fact that animals of different genus can breed doesn't break rules, it simply means that the taxonomic mapping and name are wrong and need to be adjusted. Taxonomy is supposed to represent genetic semblence based on observation and study... you can't blame nature for "breaking the rules" of a human system of definition... our initial understanding of the animal was simply wrong.
Click to expand...

How do you find those weirder?? BP's and Retics are in the same genus, and anacondas are a type of boa. So those breedings are not weird at all, genetically speaking. I guess my original explanation was not clear, I guess I was getting at the fact that reptile taxonomics are lacking very badly and seriously need to be revamped.

But you're not going to be able to breed a hognose to a cornsnake. There are sooooo many differences in them, genetically and physically, unlike a retic and ball python.
 
Yes, But does that absolutely mean you can't breed them? I'm not sure about internals, But I can see quite a few externally. I could say the same about lions and tigers.....But then there are the ligers
 
A lion and a tiger are both in the genus Panthera.
They have much much much more in common than a hog nose and a cornsnake.
Practically Everything is different with hognoses and corns.
 
Kings and corns are very closely related. A rear fanged venomous amphibian chewer is much, much, much more different than those two rodent eating constrictors. They are from two different subfamilies within the colubrid snakes (Pantherophis guttatus = subfamily Colubrinae, Heterodon = subfamily Dipsadinae). So they are as distantly related as it is possible within the family Colubridae. As Michelle said, colubrids are sort of a catch-all classification for snakes that don't fit elsewhere, so there are a lot of animals in there that are relatively unrelated. Garter snakes are also colubrids, and don't even lay eggs.
 
AliCat37 said:
A lion and a tiger are both in the genus Panthera.
Click to expand...
Sorry for bringing it up again but again but it looks a bit like you're presenting a reveresed cause and effect.
Animals do not adhere to their latin scientific names and abide by those "laws". Humans study these animals and based on the somewhat limited information we have, make calculated assumptions about their genetic relation to other animals.

So... Lions and Tigers breed not because they are defined in the same genus. They are defined in the same genus BECAUSE they have allot in common and can breed.

There are also numerous studies suggesting that ALL snakes are venomous and that Colubrids have toxins in their saliva which are not potent against human beings.
So... I wouldn't be surprised "out of my mind" if it suddenly does yield results.

Still, I wouldn't go through with it regardless.
 
I was going to post that I was too afraid of the venom issue But now that each one does. It might be worth a try. Again....it would be a try while I was in the room watching closely. Hope snakes are not shy about sexing.
 
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