help!!! columbian common boa

[tyflier]

I don't know you, know nothing of the snake, and nothing of the previous owner. Some observations and suggestions...

A snake this badly injured being mellow and sweet is not a good thing. In the medical world, they refer to that as "lethargic", and it's usually not good. I would recommend you stop handling this snake and causing it more stress than the injuries are already causing. Right now this animal needs to be left alone in a sterile environment to heal.

Pitbulls would have killed this snake, in the most likely scenario. It's very unlikely that pitbulls got hold of this animal, caused such horrific injuries, and allowed the snake to live. At least that is my personal opinion.

You absolutely NEED immediate vet treatment. This is not a suggestion, it is a requirement. There could be nerve damage and/or internal injuries that need to be taken care of.

Use OTC medication sparingly. You mentioned your "triple antibiotic ointment". MNake sure it is NOT one with pain relief. Even small amounts of topical anesthetics can be fatal to this animal, especially if applied to open wounds.

You absolutely NEED immediate vet treatment. This is not a suggestion, it is a requirement.

Good luck.

 

[srsb]

A terribly injured snake NEEDS professional medical attention! Not baths and tape. If CORHS will take the snake, for the snake's best interest, give him to them! "Ending up in a tupperware container" is not a bad thing for a snake that has extensive recovery needed. And, once healed, CORHS will find him a regular home.

And, I agree with tyflier---pit bulls would have killed the snake. I believe it was rats. Rats can tear up a snake.

 

[envy13]

thank you for all of your suggestions she is going to the vet today i made the apt i know she will be ok and she knows i am trying to help her she can tell i know it i'm so thankful for all of your suggestions

 

[tyflier]

thank you for all of your suggestions she is going to the vet today i made the apt i know she will be ok and she knows i am trying to help her she can tell i know it i'm so thankful for all of your suggestions

How can you tell that she knows you are trying to help her? Did she tell you?

Be wary of anthropomorphizing snakes. They do not think, feel, act, or react the same way that we do. They have NO propensity for sympathy or fondness. They cannot "love" you. They simply do not have the ability to feel and/or display emotions, and they simply cannot understand your intentions.

Every action and reaction that a snake has will always be based on instinct. They don't think like we do, and they don't feel emotions...

 

[bitsy]

I'm so relieved that you've found a way to visit the vet. Please let us know how you get on - sending you both good thoughts.

 

[wstphal]

Be wary of anthropomorphizing snakes. They do not think, feel, act, or react the same way that we do. They have NO propensity for sympathy or fondness. They cannot "love" you. They simply do not have the ability to feel and/or display emotions, and they simply cannot understand your intentions.

Umm, the "reptile" brain aspects of mammalian brains are the substrate of primitive emotions like fear. I totally agree with the idea that we should not anthropomorphize, and that they don't feel sympathy, fondness, or love. I am not sure I agree they do not display or feel any emotion, because I think they can be frightened & display that with threat behaviors to ward off the danger, and I am sure they have the central nervous system substrate to feel fear. I think it probably isn't anything like the experience a mammal feels when it is afraid though.

Anyway, back to the OP. Good for you for figuring out how to get vet help fo your rescue, and good luck in rehabbing this snake! The snake may not be able to feel gratitude for being rescued, but that's no reason not to try to do the right thing.

 

[bitsy]

O/T but I think we're talking about the difference between an "emotion" and an "instinct". I'd have fear down as a survival instinct rather than an emotion. Emotions are more complex and subtle, and less directly linked with staying alive. Sounds like we all agree that snakes don't do those.

Love/fondness is beyond them, although they do seem capable of recognising that specific humans are safe to be around. But again, that's instinct as opposed to a "feeling".

 

[Outcast]

Just a question that I like to pose every once in a while, when people state that animals can't feel, or have no emotions....
At what point did instinct become intelligence/feelings? Whats to say that what we go through every day isn't our instincts? What makes them emotions?

 

[bitsy]

At what point did instinct become intelligence/feelings?

I don't believe it did. They're two separate things.

SNAKE:
1) How to stay alive?
2) Where to be the right temperature?
3) Where to get food?
4) Where to get water?
5) What is there nearby to mate with?

HUMAN:
1) Did I remember to lock the front door? There was a break-in down the block last week. Maybe I should buy an alarm system. This area is getting scary. Maybe I should move.
2) Can I afford to install double-glazing or is it cheaper just to turn the central heating up? Should I wait until the next pay rise?
3) Salad or steak? I know which one I ought to have, but what the hell. One more won't make my arteries harden any faster (probably). Now... medium rare or well done? Which sauce?
4) Soda? Hmm. I'm driving? Maybe just the one more beer - I'm worried about getting a DUI but hopefully I'll get away with it.
5) I really fancy that guy at school but he's only interested in my best friend. It's killing me to see him every day - he doesn't know I'm alive. I can't sleep, I can't eat, I just want him to notice me. I wonder if I should call him?

Snakes are survival machines. Their basic design hasn't evolved in millions of years - they work fine just the way they are. Humans are still just getting started in comparison.

 

[Outcast]

So bitsy, what you are saying is that they are more evolved than us in the survival area? We are working towards that, if our species survives long enough?

 

[Kokopelli]

I don't believe it did. They're two separate things.

SNAKE:
1) How to stay alive?
2) Where to be the right temperature?
3) Where to get food?
4) Where to get water?
5) What is there nearby to mate with?

HUMAN:
1) Did I remember to lock the front door? There was a break-in down the block last week. Maybe I should buy an alarm system. This area is getting scary. Maybe I should move.
2) Can I afford to install double-glazing or is it cheaper just to turn the central heating up? Should I wait until the next pay rise?
3) Salad or steak? I know which one I ought to have, but what the hell. One more won't make my arteries harden any faster (probably). Now... medium rare or well done? Which sauce?
4) Soda? Hmm. I'm driving? Maybe just the one more beer - I'm worried about getting a DUI but hopefully I'll get away with it.
5) I really fancy that guy at school but he's only interested in my best friend. It's killing me to see him every day - he doesn't know I'm alive. I can't sleep, I can't eat, I just want him to notice me. I wonder if I should call him?

Snakes are survival machines. Their basic design hasn't evolved in millions of years - they work fine just the way they are. Humans are still just getting started in comparison.

I suggest you take a look at Temple Green's book - The secret language of animals... I wouldn't be so cut and dry about it. Why is fear an emotion for us but an instinct for an animal?

I am not saying that snakes "love" their owners... but heck, they are definitely not a pile of nerves either, they act, react and overall unique individuals.

 

[bitsy]

I think of fear as an instinct for both humans and animals. It's necessary to avoid situations which could threaten survival, which is about as basic and primal as a reaction gets.

I agree that snakes certainly act/react as unique individuals. No two snakes will exhibit exactly the same response to a given situation. That doesn't make them "emotional" beings. That just means that their brain physiology is arranged in unique way, as with all living creatures.

 

[bitsy]

Apologies - I've helpfully assisted in derailing this thread completely. Maybe we should start a separate one?

Looking forward to hearing what the vet has to say about the boa. Fingers crossed that the outcome is good.

 

[tyflier]

I suggest you take a look at Temple Green's book - The secret language of animals... I wouldn't be so cut and dry about it. Why is fear an emotion for us but an instinct for an animal?

I am not saying that snakes "love" their owners... but heck, they are definitely not a pile of nerves either, they act, react and overall unique individuals.

"Fear", as humans know it, goes beyond the basic instinct. We have the cognitive ability to reason and decipher, think and assess, and respond with worry or fearsome thoughts. No other animals on the planet react this way.

A snake shows "fear" by recoiling from an immediate threat. This is entirely different than creating a percieved threat in their mind and building an emotional fear based on that cognitive process.

Fear as an instinct, which all animals exhibit, is a reaction to an immediate stimulus, not an emotional response to cognitive reasoning. Standing on the edge of a cliff and being fearful of falling is a natural instinct that is designed to save our lives. Being afraid of the future because of the political processes we might be experiencing is an emotional reaction to a cognitive process. This is far beyond the ability of snakes.

 

[RosieReal]

Any word on how this poor baby is doing? I'd love to hear what the vet had to say!

 

[Kokopelli]

There are studies that suggest otherwise... why elephants cry is a wonderfully written book that demonstrates just that, and the other book I mentioned.
I am not going to go into a debate here(and I mean that Chris)... personally I find the the experiments relating to animal's emotions to be sub-par. the words "instinct" and "emotion" are purely human definitions- defined by human standards which may or may not be true. We don't really have to tools to know what animals experience and how far are those internal "feelings" from human emotions... snakes don't have tear ducts... but that doesn't really prove anything... and there are animals that can cry.

I tend to believe that as always, we have a tendency to think we have figured everything out... but infact we still have miles to go before we unearth the exact nature of things. I haven't the slightest idea how the truth differs from the norm nowdays, but I am positive that it does.

 

[tyflier]

There are studies that suggest otherwise... why elephants cry is a wonderfully written book that demonstrates just that, and the other book I mentioned.
I am not going to go into a debate here(and I mean that Chris)... personally I find the the experiments relating to animal's emotions to be sub-par. the words "instinct" and "emotion" are purely human definitions- defined by human standards which may or may not be true. We don't really have to tools to know what animals experience and how far are those internal "feelings" from human emotions... snakes don't have tear ducts... but that doesn't really prove anything... and there are animals that can cry.

I tend to believe that as always, we have a tendency to think we have figured everything out... but infact we still have miles to go before we unearth the exact nature of things. I haven't the slightest idea how the truth differs from the norm nowdays, but I am positive that it does.

I haven't read either book. And I've no intention to. I have no interest in the anthropomorphizing of animals. It is one of the greatest dangers we can do as humans. That's how people get mauled and killed...by pretending that wild animals love them and want to be with them. It's silly and it gets people killed.

There is no doubt that some mammalian and avian species display reactions that are uncannily similar to human emotions. That doesn't mean these animals have the cognitive ability to reason, plan, decipher, and think the way we do. Firstly consider that all of the animals thought to display these tendencies are flock or herd animals. Than consider that all of them rely upon their flock-mates for their own individual survival. Is it an emotional response to a cognitive thought process? I don't believe it is. But you are right in that we don't know for certain...

These tendencies have never been displayed in reptilian species, to even a minor degree, let alone to the degree that we can say they have emotional reactions. If you kill an elephant in front of it's sister that elephant will display a reaction that we associate with mourning, whether or not it is truly an emotional response. Kill a snake in front of it's clutchmate, and the survivor is likely to eat the dead one. Just a minor difference, wouldn't you agree?

Comparing elephants to a Boa constrictor is like comparing my daughter to her hamster. It just doesn't make any sense beyond the fact that they both breath air, eat food, drink water, and defecate...

And if you don't want to debate it's easy enough to avoid...stop debating. Posting your points at every chance is debating. You can't expect me to not respond when I find your points definitively off the mark, can you? :shrugs:

 

[Kokopelli]

Yes well, I am not surprised that you would disqualify something without examining it... nor with the fact that you are incapable of not explaining how everyone is wrong for believing differently than yourself. And how -can- you not reply to someone not speaking directly at you? it's called self restraint/minding your own business, something you seem to demand from everyone, yourself excluded.

As far as I am concerned, a person who refuses to read books written by two renouned doctors chooses ignorance and hangs on to it out of stubborness that is no longer logical.

You seem to be having difficulty with not quoting me even though I have asked you repeatedly not to so... it's your right, sure, but it doesn't speak highly of you.

 

[tyflier]

Yes well, I am not surprised that you would disqualify something without examining it... nor with the fact that you are incapable of not explaining how everyone is wrong for believing differently than yourself. And how -can- you not reply to someone not speaking directly at you? it's called self restraint/minding your own business, something you seem to demand from everyone, yourself excluded.

As far as I am concerned, a person who refuses to read books written by two renouned doctors chooses ignorance and hangs on to it out of stubborness that is no longer logical.

You seem to be having difficulty with not quoting me even though I have asked you repeatedly not to so... it's your right, sure, but it doesn't speak highly of you.

You really need to stop taking everything so personally, Oren...

I didn't read the books because they don't interest me. I don't care why a reknowned doctor might think elephants cry. It doesn't concern me. I will, however, say, "That's what happens" when his/her "research" leaves him/her trampled under foot of this giant wild animal that is supposed to love him/her.

Ask Timothy Trainor how wonderfully loving Grizzly Bears are. Oh wait...you can't...he's now nothing but a pile of Grizzly defecation. You know why that is? Because he anthropomorphized those animals and paid the price for it.

And how am I saying everyone else is wrong and I am right? By pointing out that this boa cannot, will not, and does not "know I am helping it"? You seem to be the only person saying I am wrong about that, and you are doing so by comparing this boa constrictor to an elephant.

And since you DID directly reply to me AND specifically state my name in your response...yes...I will respond to you, no matter how much that might irritate you. If you can't handle having a rational and reasonable debate without taking every opposing viewpoint personally to heart, stop debating. I quote you because I find LARGE flaws in your argument(specifically, a book about elephants has no bearing on a boa constrictor's reaction to medical treatment). It's easier to quote you and respond than it is to respond without a frame of referance. I can't help it that you take that personally. That's your problem niot mine.

Finally...I don't now and never have cared about what you think of me. The problem is...you like to think you know more than everyone else. Anytime I post an opposing viewpoint to what you have posted, you take it as a personal affront. It isn't. I disagree with your opinion that boas have the capacity for human emotions. That's not personal, it's an opinion. And there is FAR more scientific evidence to support THIS theory than there is to support YOURS.

Speaking of self-restraint...I notice you have a hard time not responding, yourself. Somehow, I'm supposed to be the one to just let it go, but you are OK to continue posting to me whenever you want, saying whatever you want? And I'm the jerk for responding?

Whatever keeps you happy, dude. Go on ahead with your bad self, tickle an elephant or two, and tell them how sympathetic you are to their plight. Go grab that rattler by it's belly and tell him how you're only trying to help him. Maybe he'll respond with his human emotion and his capacity to understand and comprehend what you are doing. Can't wait to see the results of your "experiments"...

And try to remember that this didn't become personal until you MADE it personal. Up until this very post, I was simply making rational and reasonable counter points to your misplaced comparisons...:nope:

 

[wstphal]

"Fear", as humans know it, goes beyond the basic instinct. We have the cognitive ability to reason and decipher, think and assess, and respond with worry or fearsome thoughts. No other animals on the planet react this way.

A snake shows "fear" by recoiling from an immediate threat. This is entirely different than creating a percieved threat in their mind and building an emotional fear based on that cognitive process.

My point about fear was that both mammals and reptiles exhibit the recoil-from-immediate-threat response, and share the same neurobiological substrate for it. To that extent, reptiles have emotions. No, they can't feel fear about the future. But I would have the recoil-from-immediate-threat response if I nearly stepped on a diamondback, and the diamondback would too! LOL.