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Hobby Breeders w/Business names

Drizzt80

Dakota Corns
Just wanting to get some insight before I move ahead with things around here. I'm curious about those of you with business-like names for your breeding operations whether you have to officially be a small business, or if it's accepted practice to just give yourself a name for your selling your stuff as a hobby.

My boss (part time at the pet store, who's been in business for 30 yrs) indicated that officially becoming a small business is really unnecessary up to a certain point. Income vs. expenses being one of them of course. He said I'd be considered a hobby more than anything.

Basically, from other's experiences:
1. Does having an official sounding business name indicate that you officially need to become a small busniness.
2. At what point would your breeding/selling efforts need to be officially listed as a small business?

I'm just anal about doing things right, and also don't want to give any money to the IRS if I don't technically have to! Also, I'm nowhere near breaking even at this hobby . . . which I believe is pretty much standard!! :)

Thanks in advance for any insights!
D80
 
Drizzt80 said:
1. Does having an official sounding business name indicate that you officially need to become a small busniness.

I would say, No.

Drizzt80 said:
2. At what point would your breeding/selling efforts need to be officially listed as a small business?

When you are planning/hoping to turn a profit.
 
Thanks for the page Quigs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically you need to make a profit, or intend to make a profit, to be considered a business. And the bad news, even income from a hobby needs to be reported to the IRS (would that be income as a profit, or total income you made selling snakes?)

D80
 
Let me make it a bit simpler with what I'm asking:

Basically I want to call myself Dakota Corns (which is a business sounding name) when it comes to advertising, selling, and buying cornsnakes. At what point would I technically need to be registered as a small business (according to Quigs gov. resource, when I make a profit . . . or not). Also, what income would I need to report as a hobby breeder at tax time in the future? Profit made after expenses, or just outright sale price of the animals I end up selling?

Or, would it be less of a hassle to just keep selling them under my internet nick (Drizzt80), which of course would still be used even selling as 'Dakota Corns'?

Thanks,
D80
 
This is a two-sided question IMO.

If you are planning on using this for tax purposes, the business must be officially recognized with both your state and federal government. Setting up a DBA (doing business as) is quick and painless, but necessary in order to write off the business' losses or profits on your personal income tax. You can't claim the business is a sole-proprietorship if it doesn't legally exist. In order for it to be considered a viable business (versus an illegal tax shelter) you must show a profit in 3 of the first 5 years. The hows and whats vary according to state law so your state’s small business administration would be the most accurate source for ND specifics.

If you just want to sell snakes and aren't looking for any tax break, a name isn't needed at all. There may be sales tax issues in your state that still need to be considered, but there is no federal income tax issue if the hobby expenses aren’t being claimed as personal income/loss.
 
To be a legal business, I know that in my area I have to get a state business license, a city business license and have a license to run a business out of my home. I have that for my jewelry and other stuff, and I keep the snake part of it more as a hobby. As long as I have the licenses for the other, I can always include the snakes once I'm making money from them. That won't be for a few years, if ever. :shrugs: All they asked on the license application was "what will be your primary product or service you provide?". Primary would be art, jewelry, clothes. Not so primary would be snakes. They don't have to know...hehehe
 
If you're intending to be a business and you're making more than $300 per year in income from that business, you need to get a tax license from the state (as suggested above) for filing your business taxes (obviously). That $300 limit is nationwide and not just local to certain states. And since you're probably a sole-proprietorship (you're the one and only owner), the tax license can be in your name or you can get a DBA if you want your license to be under your company name.
 
CAV said:
If you just want to sell snakes and aren't looking for any tax break, a name isn't needed at all. There may be sales tax issues in your state that still need to be considered, but there is no federal income tax issue if the hobby expenses aren’t being claimed as personal income/loss.

Thanks CAV for the info. I'm not looking for a tax break, so I understand that the name is not needed. Would the DBA, or tax license, be necessary if I chose to name myself with Dakota Corns?


Jujube said:
If you're intending to be a business and you're making more than $300 per year in income from that business, you need to get a tax license from the state (as suggested above) for filing your business taxes (obviously).

$300 a year . . . is that profit after expenses?
I know this may depend on state law, and truthfully I'm an idiot when it comes to taxes and the like. (I know for state sales tax that would be different.)

Basically I'm looking to do this as painlessly as possible, but also without breaking any laws. I'm just worried that if I call myself something that sounds like a business (Dakota Corns) am I going to have to jump through the hoops even though I'm just doing the same thing I've done for the past two years. I'm anticipating having a larger number of hatchlings, and at least want to sound more official . .

Are there those here on the forum who have a 'business sounding name' that don't do any of this? (Don't have a DBA or sales tax license) Not that this makes it right of course, and maybe I'm helping others out by asking!
Are there those here on the forum who have a 'business sounding name' that do do this (Do have a DBA or sales tax license) because they found out it was necessary.

Again, I'm only looking at this from a hobby-breeder standpoint as I am in no position to look at it as a career!

Thanks again for the information, it's been great to think about!
D80
 
A big thanks to those that have provided helpful information. At the least, I got the verbage necessary to search my state government's website . . . for about two hours yesterday!

Here's what I found:
In the state of ND, anyone doing business under a Trade Name (I assume it's the same thing CAV referred to as a DBA) other than their own legal name and surname, needs to have that trade name registered with the State. ($25, good for 5 years)

Sales tax license is free.

One final question that maybe someone knows, or I'll have to continue searching, do you typically have to pay sales tax on items sold to, or as, a wholesaler?

Thanks again for the help, maybe someone else with get something out of this thread as well!
D80
 
Well - I am Canadian but I DO work at an accounting firm, and lots of the basic rules are the same.

Basically, here is how things work. If you are planning on making a profit as a business you SHOULD be making a profit, as was addressed earlier in this thread. It's called a requirement to profit. Now - when doing business you can write off your expenses and supplies, etc... BUT when you do this as a hobby and are not intending, or simply don't, make a profit, then you have no excuse to write off these expenses as it is just that, a hobby. The only way you can use the expenses is if you're making a profit. Makes sense, you shouldn't be able to claim business expenses (and therefore reduce the amount of taxes you owe on income made) if you're not really in business.

Now, the government KNOWS that you won't always be making a profit due to bad business deals, or other circumstances, which is why they allow you to take a business loss, and therefore the tax benefits for those losing money on viable business ventures. However, do that too much, or too long and the gov't will come in and check over your books (through means of an audit) determine that you're not caring out a business with the intention of making a profit and through out all of your expenses, and therefore you will be required to pay full tax on ALL income made.

Yes, you are required to report ALL income ever made, but what kid shows the 10 bucks he made mowing Mrs. Lowdry's lawn? Or if you sold a snake for 100 bucks? However, as the good taxpayers you all are, you should be reporting the 5000 you made in sales last year by selling herps.

I would suggest you discuss this with your accountant (do yourself a favour and make sure you have a designated accountant) to see what you should expense and how much. If you still show a profit over your expenses then you'll probably be fine. You might lose a few bucks on the 'ol refund, but at least some of your hobby income will be tax free! Even if you don't deduct ALL of the expenses you could have... Also, mention to your accountant the office in the home tax shelters you can use - helps to write off some utilities and the computer, etc...

Ok - now for operating names (or as some have referred to it as, doing business as). You don't need to have one of these names registered for you to carry on business in this way. and you can simply be Mr. Sam Wolly proprietor of snake sales. You can EVEN dub yourself "Playing Koi" (a name I like to banter around, but don't feel bad if YOU wanna use it, I won’t be hurt) - But you CAN be held liable for prosecution (sue-age) if you use it as your business name and someone else has it registered. So, do yourself a favour and get it registered - Here in Canada you can just go to a registry and do it, but it might be different in the states, your accountant will help you out with this. Up here, you need to worry about having the name registered nationally versus provincially, how this affects you (though I don't think you need to, if your just mail ordering out of your own state) should be consulted with by an accountant.

Don’t forget sales taxes, another accountant question.

Hmm, so much information to give... Hope this all helps!


Oh - one more thing, make sure that your name doesn't include a business corporation elemtent or else you're saying that you're a busines corporation instead of a propietor... If you called yourself Playing Koi Corporation - that's a no no - unless you registered as a corporation - but DEFINITELY don't do that unless you have discussed this with your accountant.

And, as always, ask your accountant what the legal elements are for corporations.

In Canada they are: Corporation, Corp, Limited, Ltd, Holding, and more that slip my mind at the moment.

In Canada you can still use - Enterprises though - and it always has a nice ring to it.

Let me know if this info has been helpful!!!

THANKS!!
 
Thanks Mike! You know your stuff . . . eh!? :)

As for a choosing a trade name, it was very clear in the information provided by the state that you can't use corporation, inc. etc. as a sole proprietorship which is what I would register as.

What's interesting is that as a 'hobby' you can't write off losses, but you do have to pay taxes on income! They'll get you any way they can!

Thanks again for the info Mike it is appreciated.
D80
 
No problem - Now, let me reitterate that my advice isn't flawless but I believe it to be fairly accurate for both Canadians and Americans.

Just gotta cover my legal butt.

- Drizzt

Of course, if you're making money you have to pay taxes, but don't let them call it a hobby, call it a side business... and then don't declare all of your expenses which would show a big loss of profit on paper, give yourself a few hundred dollars of profit, and the gov't will be happy. Nothing says you have to claim ALL of your business expenses... But again - Talk to your accountant.
 
tagging along...

i just wanted to tag along and see what i can learn from this thread aswell. ive been thinking about alot of the same things your wondering D80.

id like to start (eventually) carrying out my snake sales as a small business and the things involved in setting up a small business seems quite overwhelming when you dont have any experience in it. all the forms, licenses, etc etc.
 
Well I sent off the paperwork Friday for my trade name and sale and use tax permit.

Basically after getting started here, I just visited my state's webpage, and there was a lot of information about starting a business (find the secretary of state section). A couple phone calls to follow up information that wasn't clear, and hopefully I've got it all taken care of.

D80
 
Sorry - I can't help you - not unless you're setting up a Canadian small business! 8-P

Good going D80 - I love seeing people take their hobbies and interests to the next level. Just make sure you feel out all of the obligations you may be required for... I know that sometimes, in particular the GSt tax in Canada, isn't nicely pointed out in the prop business pamphlet that most new sole-props use as their bible. Heck, for us that's a whole other return that needs filed monthly, quarterly, or yearly. Not to mention if your sole-prop business makes enough money the Gov't may require that make monthly or quarterly payments on the possible tax owing.

If you need any help I can definately point you in the right direction, but always always always consult your professionals. Do I sound like a broken record yet?

Good luck! And may dollar bills (they're called loonies here - ha!) pile up in your dreams!
 
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I've noticed this thread in my old favourites back in "the day" I just wanted to mention that I have some updates on a few things for Canadians. I discovered, through some obscure section of the Tax Act, that the governement may not now make a distinction between hobby and business. Which means you can shelter much more without worry now. It was recently appealed and changed by a federal court case. This is good news for us Canucks!

However, they can still act upon gross exateration of facts and presumptions made solely for the purpose of sheltering your taxes. So don't be dumb, just report what is truly herp related and you'll be fine. But also, don't forget that you can deduct promotional expenses too. Talk to some friends about how to set up a good enclosure over dinner? Write it off! Had a few snake buddies over for a party? Write off the booze! Who knows, you might have made a sale, right?

While I will admit there is some "wiggle" room for you to explore *always* talk to your accountant... Always. Hell, as an actor I used to write off novels, movies, plays, etc... all in the name of research!

Cheers to profit! Make riches flow from your dreams! Yippee!
 
Wow! Haven't seen you around much. Good to see you.

Thanks for the advice on this subject. I'm sure many Canadian hobbyists will breathe easier.
 
Life grabbed me by the nuts, and I got out of the hobby for a little bit. Married now! Lookin' to pick up a neonate or two and get back into the swing of things.
 
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