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"How Snakes Survive Starvation"

Wow. They starved and killed 62 snakes so that we could have that information. :shrugs:

It's interestng, but eh....

I know many of you will probably not agree, my apologies, it has been a long week...
 
Plissken said:
Wow. They starved and killed 62 snakes so that we could have that information. :shrugs:

And where exactly in the article does it state that the animals were killed?

Also, it states: "The 62 snakes studied went about six months without eating - a time period that could well be duplicated in the wild, where food supplies can be scarce." Let me emphasize the "time period that could well be duplicated in the wild" part. The study was aimed at studying how snakes survive in the wild based on conditions found in the wild.

I think you obviously read into the article what you wanted to unfortunately.

While it is possible (although unlikely based on the lack of evidence in the article) that the animals could have been killed and autopsied in the name of science, it's not like this is something new to science. Sometimes these studies are done for the benefit of us humans so that we can understand the state of the natural environment and the physiological/biological of the studied animals within those environments so that we help further our care of the ecosystem. But again, there's nowhere in the article that states that the animals were subject to any unnatural conditions or harm.
 
I've read the same article elsewhere before, and they state that the animals were euthanised.

I don't care if it replicates natural conditions. I could starve my snakes, if it's natural, but I won't. These are animals in our care. Nature doesn't come in to it.

On the "it may benefit us" part... vivisection on mammals claims to be benefit people too, but I don't have to agree with that. :shrugs:

You sounded almost offended. I wasn't aiming my comments at you, or at anyone. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but it's my view.
 
Plissken said:
You sounded almost offended. I wasn't aiming my comments at you, or at anyone. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but it's my view.

Actually, I wasn't offended at all :) I'm just merely pointing out that your claim is unsubstantiated by any proof. If you read a more detailed article, then please by all means offer it as proof to back up your claim.

And so you know, I respect your opinion whether we agree or not :)

I do however believe you walk a fine line in determining what is beneficial to humans and/or animals especially with statements like this "These are animals in our care". These animals are in our care because we literally force them into captivity as are done with most pets. While I'm not going to argue the morality or whatnot of keeping pets and/or experimenting on animals for the sake of knowledge. You do have to keep in mind that under "our care" means that these animals are living in artificial surroundings and often maintained what best serves humans and not exactly the animals themselves, especially when you consider that most breeders keep their animals in smallish tubs with no ability to interact within their own natural environment. Just food for thought... :sidestep:

Peace :)
 
Have a search on Google News. The articles are there. I feel no need to trawl them up and prove myself; neither of our opinions are going to change either way. If you're really curious to know, I'll find them tomorrow, but it's 11:40pm here and I'm going to bed.

I wasn't making any claim at all. I wasn't offering anything as hard and fast fact. I was imparting an opinion.

If we force animals in to captivity, we have a responsibility to ensure they are cared for. For the very reason they get no say in the matter. A wild snake may starve for months, but at least he has a CHANCE of finding a meal. It's fair and square. A snake put in a box and starved is living a useless existence. He has no chance of feeding himself. Sorry, but it's not my cup of tea. Yeah, my snakes are forced captives, but at least they aren't hungry or suffering captives. To me there's a difference.

Anyway. I'm off to bed. I'm not trying to argue with you, by the way - I respect your opinion, and you respect mine. It's all good. Have a nice night/day :)
 
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Animals are used in research all the time and death is a regular part of that. Sometimes it is by accident and other times it is done on purpose. The fact that these were snakes and so maybe you feel differently about it, doesn't change anything.
In the U.S., as well as most if not all other countries that conduct this type of research I would suspect, there are strict animal use and animal care policies for anyone conducting research with animals. If they were euthanized at the end of the study, it had to be in the animal use protocol. I work with fish and many of the fish get "pickled" for study in the lab. You get some that die every once in a while from natural causes. Does it suck? sure. But that's life.
 
Here's the article that Plissken was referring to and yes, he is correct in stating that the animals were in fact euthanized after the study.

But again, I have to agree with zwyatt's thoughts which mirror my own. Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make :)
 
DeadMouse said:
Here's the article that Plissken was referring to and yes, he is correct in stating that the animals were in fact euthanized after the study.

But again, I have to agree with zwyatt's thoughts which mirror my own. Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make :)
Yes but I think that Plissken point was that the information is useless information. who cares how long it took to starve. How is this helpful. But I didn't read it either.
 
Lennycorn said:
Yes but I think that Plissken point was that the information is useless information. who cares how long it took to starve. How is this helpful. But I didn't read it either.

The thing is that the usefullness of a given scientific study isn't equally obvious to all people. In fact, it is often very difficult for non-scientists to see or understand the usefullness of many studies that are conducted. This often stems from the fact that the preconceived notion of most of society is that scientific study is supposed to improve the life of humans and do it in the near future rather than the long-term. If there is no obvious benefit to humans, then many people think it's useless.
The fact is that much of the science done around the world isn't directed so much at benefiting human welfare as it is for the sake of understanding the natural world and the things that inhabit it. Not everyone is born with the same propensity to appreciate nature or the pursuit of understanding it. Just as not everyone is born with the same propensity to sit behind a desk for 8 hours a day. The necessity of studying natures and the joy that comes from doing it, it is not plainly obvious to everyone. Not everyone on this planet is as intrigued by the ecology of harvester ants or the systematics of fungi as the scientists who actually work on it. The majority of what goes on in science is done because the scientists who do it have a passion for the natural world and for the process of discovery.

Sometimes, it's hard for people to swallow the fact that not all science is going to directly benefit human welfare. We have to remember that just because one person can't see the usefulness of something doesn't mean that it's useless to everyone else.
 
zwyatt said:
Sometimes, it's hard for people to swallow the fact that not all science is going to directly benefit human welfare. We have to remember that just because one person can't see the usefulness of something doesn't mean that it's useless to everyone else.

I just read the link that was posted and sorry to say the reason for the study wasn't stated. But I wasn't stating that the study had to be useful to humans to be useful.
 
Lennycorn said:
But I wasn't stating that the study had to be useful to humans to be useful.

I didn't say that you said this. I was commenting on the attitude put forth by the previous poster and further spelled out by you. Wasn't implying that you felt that way, but I believe that is the way that most critics of scientific studies feel.

Lennycorn said:
I just read the link that was posted and sorry to say the reason for the study wasn't stated.

Actually...

These findings could be used in conservation strategies to determine the health of snake populations.

Understanding the physiology that allows them to succeed in low-energy environments will help scientists further their understanding of the snakes' evolution and their adaptation to their current ecosystems.
 
I would like to add, Zach, that even though not all scientific inquiry is not pursued with human interest in mind, sometimes, great benefits to humans might come out of the science anyway. We never know ahead of time what we will learn, and therefore, we never know how what we will learn may be useful either now, or later. Historically, a lot of scientific knowledge hasn't been all that useful when the knowledge was first produced, but became useful later, when someone else, with access to better technology, picked up that knowledge and made something useful out of it. People often think that there's no use to scientific knowledge that has no immediate usefulness, forgetting that that knowledge might just change the world one day.

Mendel's pea experiments, and the knowledge that he derived from them, that phenotypic characteristics are inherited as "particles" you get, one from each parent, were of very little use to anyone in the 1800s. Or for a large chunk of the 1900s. But today, combined with the knowledge of the structure of DNA discovered in the mid-1900s, and with the more recently developed technology to reliably replicate DNA in the lab, the scientific community can identify genes that make people ill, and that bestow resistance to HIV, and allow people to get genetic counseling before they have kids if they want to minimize their chances of producing a kid with CF, or Tay-Sachs. And then of course there's paternity testing and all the financial stakes of people pinned up in that--that's just plain and simple punnet squares is all. Mendel's "trivial" understanding of how pea pods get their color and skin type and how pea plants get their flower color had to come first.

If science only focuses on things that have obvious benefit to humanity now, the focus of science will become very narrow, and we will effectively cut off our noses to spite our faces by not investigating all the many things in the world that don't seem useful now, but might be of paramount importance later. And these days, with scientific communication being SO global, and with the pace of technological change being so rapid, the odds are good that someone is going to see and be able to capitalize on the utility of almost any scientific knowledge a heck of a lot sooner than 150 years from now.

(This is actually a very important issue, because science research funding is shrinking, and is often shifting heavily these days toward applied sciences.)
 
planeteers.jpg
 
zwyatt said:
Animals are used in research all the time and death is a regular part of that. Sometimes it is by accident and other times it is done on purpose. The fact that these were snakes and so maybe you feel differently about it, doesn't change anything.
In the U.S., as well as most if not all other countries that conduct this type of research I would suspect, there are strict animal use and animal care policies for anyone conducting research with animals. If they were euthanized at the end of the study, it had to be in the animal use protocol. I work with fish and many of the fish get "pickled" for study in the lab. You get some that die every once in a while from natural causes. Does it suck? sure. But that's life.

I don't really see your point in stating that animals die all the time in scientific research. I know this. Just because something is fact, is so, doesn't mean I have to like it any better. :shrugs: And the fact that they are snakes has nothing to do with it. I love and feel strongly about ALL animals.

I didn't really say the information was useless. I, personally, don't see how it benefits man or beast. But, even if it is the most useful information on earth. Who cares? That doesn't make the method of obtaining that information right. I don't agree with vivisection, and many people say that strongly benefits human life.

Lol, I knew that post would rock the boat... I love this site :grin01:
 
I couldn't personally do research that's invasive, and I would have a difficult time if my research meant that I had to euthanize my subjects at the end of it, but I admit that I'm glad that some other people can and do. It's kind of like how I couldn't personally tolerate a career as a farmer, but I like to eat so I'm glad that other people can and do. (I also couldn't tolerate being an MD, or a psychologist, or a schoolteacher, or a computer programmer, but I'm glad that other people can and do.)

I do think it's a rather arbitrary distinction to disagree with animal research but not the domestication of animals to satisfy other human needs or gratifications, like eating them, eating their byproducts, or for having pets. I can see your point, but I can't figure how it's logically sound. I guess if you're a vegan, your approach to the question is closer to being logically sound, but perhaps the issue here isn't logic, but ethics.
 
I don't disagree with animals being used to benefit us. I keep pets, eat meat, etc etc. I DO disagree with animals being made to deliberately suffer during this captive period, even worse when the benefit to us is murky to pinpoint! My pets may be pets, but they are well cared for. I may buy meat, but I make an effort to only buy meats from good sources where the animals are not penned up all day, etc etc. No, I can't guarantee that what the packet claims is true, but I can least try to be responsible where animals are concerned. I think you're maybe misunderstanding what I'm trying to say here.

I'm not even quite sure what the article is trying to prove. We already know that animals digest their own body tissues during starvation. Humans included. Is it a tremendous leap of logic to suggest reptiles may do the same? Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't justify that 62 reptiles were killed so we could know something for the sake of knowing it.

But, that is the wonderful thing about an opinion. It only has to be logical to the person it belongs to. :grin01:
 
Plissken said:
I don't disagree with animals being used to benefit us. I keep pets, eat meat, etc etc. I DO disagree with animals being made to deliberately suffer during this captive period, even worse when the benefit to us is murky to pinpoint! My pets may be pets, but they are well cared for. I may buy meat, but I make an effort to only buy meats from good sources where the animals are not penned up all day, etc etc. No, I can't guarantee that what the packet claims is true, but I can least try to be responsible where animals are concerned. I think you're maybe misunderstanding what I'm trying to say here.

I'm not even quite sure what the article is trying to prove. We already know that animals digest their own body tissues during starvation. Humans included. Is it a tremendous leap of logic to suggest reptiles may do the same? Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't justify that 62 reptiles were killed so we could know something for the sake of knowing it.

But, that is the wonderful thing about an opinion. It only has to be logical to the person it belongs to. :grin01:

I've always loved it how people will say something, disapprove or approve of something or otherwise argue a point and when they get challenged on their point of view, they say 'It's my opinion! You don't get to argue with me!' If you offer your opinion, be prepared to back it up. If you don't want to have to explain your reasons, then don't say anything.

"It's my opinion!" is not a blanket excuse to just start telling people how it is.
 
I think the smiley face at the end was an indication of how serious I was being. It was an attempt at a joke. :rolleyes:

Where did I anywhere say I didn't want anyone to argue with me? I've responded to every one who has a put a post to me.

Nor am I telling anyone "how it is." I'm having my say and others are having theirs. I think you're reading too much in to this.
 
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