beautifullywild77
Go Penguins!!!
False water cobras are illegal in New Mexico and it is behavior like this is why we don't have reptile shows here.
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How to prep a snake for "walking" in a reptile show?
- Thread starter nfafan
- Start date
susang
New member
The way I see it BB and I totally agree with you some people just have to go against the grain ethically, morally and ridiculously, there is no logic to their reasoning. When I see that hand I could as easily see a child's face, or the 'op' junk and then I'm sure the chewing would hurt. Sadly there are still some who will justify it.
MegF.
That's for sale???
The repticon in Columbia allows people to bring in their snakes if they choose. They aren't breaking the rules of the show they are going to. I follow all shipping laws and expect those that ship to do so also. Before you start making blanket statements you should find out what the rules ARE.....
gelshark
 
They do allow for you to bring in a pet, not to sell the pet...
BloodyBaroness
Captain Titsworth
I already quoted them in the thread. Maybe YOU should read them before making blanket statements.
I'll re-post them just for you, from post #11.
gelshark
 
MEGF LOOK AT THE RULES TO THE REPTICON COLUMBIA SHOW I WILL LINK AND QUOTE THEM FOR YOUR EASE OF ACCESS
http://repticon.com/columbia.html then click the FAQ tab
http://repticon.com/columbia.html then click the FAQ tab
BloodyBaroness
Captain Titsworth
This is about a little common sense and respect for other vendors and patrons of the show.
How would you feel if you or a loved one, heaven forbid a kid, was bitten by the FWC and had an allergic reaction?
Pretty bad right? If not, I have serious questions about your values.
Common sense and reason should tell anyone that breaking show rules and not safely containing a snake with potential to envenomate is wrong. Any snake that is being free handled at show needs a responsible person on the other end, even boas and balls can do damage with bites.
Again I say, we should be teaching responsibility and ethics, not condoning reckless behavior and telling them it's okay to break rules.
Rules exists for a reason. Safety measures exist for a reason.
How would you feel if you or a loved one, heaven forbid a kid, was bitten by the FWC and had an allergic reaction?
Pretty bad right? If not, I have serious questions about your values.
Common sense and reason should tell anyone that breaking show rules and not safely containing a snake with potential to envenomate is wrong. Any snake that is being free handled at show needs a responsible person on the other end, even boas and balls can do damage with bites.
Again I say, we should be teaching responsibility and ethics, not condoning reckless behavior and telling them it's okay to break rules.
Rules exists for a reason. Safety measures exist for a reason.
Alli_Draggy
Wadjet's family
The repticon show we've been here is pretty clear on hots being away from other tables and everything being labeled and in taped deli cups with netting over them or locked cases or both (Glades Herp Farm is the only vendor that typically brings hots, and they've definitely got their snakes under control).
I have seen "walkers", but, for the most part, they're vendors walking around with one of their animals and their company labeled t-shirt. Mostly beardies and boas, plus a couple of rescue groups/herp societies where people involved with the group will bring in a personal animal (usually a tegu, monitor, or a larger boa or python) for show and tell. Even though personal pets might be allowed, in general, you only see vendors with animals or people who just bought a poor scared ball python taking it out to show it off (when the snake really just wants to find a nice, quiet hide somewhere).
I have seen "walkers", but, for the most part, they're vendors walking around with one of their animals and their company labeled t-shirt. Mostly beardies and boas, plus a couple of rescue groups/herp societies where people involved with the group will bring in a personal animal (usually a tegu, monitor, or a larger boa or python) for show and tell. Even though personal pets might be allowed, in general, you only see vendors with animals or people who just bought a poor scared ball python taking it out to show it off (when the snake really just wants to find a nice, quiet hide somewhere).
Tara80
ACR Breeder # 787
Rarely have I ever witnessed anyone, at the shows around here (Washington State and Oregon), walking with the intent to sell an animal and not paying for a table.
It's considered bad ethics/manners.
What I have seen people do in situations like this is contact a vendor who bought a table and sell at their table and give them a little kick back cash for doing so, if it sells.
It's really strange to me that someone would think about doing this and consider it acceptable, or that it's common in other states? Weird.
It's considered bad ethics/manners.
What I have seen people do in situations like this is contact a vendor who bought a table and sell at their table and give them a little kick back cash for doing so, if it sells.
It's really strange to me that someone would think about doing this and consider it acceptable, or that it's common in other states? Weird.
MegF.
That's for sale???
Thank you for clarifying the rules. Wasn't aware of the non selling...people want to trade all the time-especially young kids tend to bring something to our tables to see if we want to buy or trade. As far as the venomous...again, at least at the shows, FWC's are not listed on the venomous sides and are routinely sold on the regular side. It's where I bought mine. They are not marked venomous and most states (excluding New Mexico evidently where everything appears to be illegal even reptile shows) do not consider them venomous..much like hognoses. That said, there's not that many FWC's sold at the shows. I see them periodically at our shows and at the Georgia show. Did see a few at the Anaheim show as well. If it's permitted in California for God's sake....the Soviet republic of California it's not that bad....Anyone bringing a snake into the show runs the risk of someone getting bitten. Sort of the same if I'm selling and someone asks to see the animal. Not sure that's a reason not to bring one if you want to. It's one of the few venues where you could bring a snake where people wouldn't freak out.
BloodyBaroness
Captain Titsworth
How can you not have been aware of the non-selling? It's slapped all over every thing rule wise from Repticon.
Most of the young kids walking around at the shows asking for trades are trying to trade something they just bought from another table and decided 10 minutes later they did not want it. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times.
I don't care if they are marked venomous or not, people who own them should know what they are capable of and take appropriate safety measures. What if it tags someone that has an allergic reaction? Massive allergic reaction and allergy issues are much more common in kids today. Planning are responsibility on the part of the owner is of the utmost important.
Consider this, while False Water Cobras are not high powered rifles of vemon, they are still a pellet gun. Even though pellet guns are much less powerful, you still don't want to shoot someone in the face one. Even the crappiest pellet gun can still kill if hits you in right place.
It's not about it being classed as this or that, it's knowing what it can do and acting responsibly and having common sense.
Most of the young kids walking around at the shows asking for trades are trying to trade something they just bought from another table and decided 10 minutes later they did not want it. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times.
I don't care if they are marked venomous or not, people who own them should know what they are capable of and take appropriate safety measures. What if it tags someone that has an allergic reaction? Massive allergic reaction and allergy issues are much more common in kids today. Planning are responsibility on the part of the owner is of the utmost important.
Consider this, while False Water Cobras are not high powered rifles of vemon, they are still a pellet gun. Even though pellet guns are much less powerful, you still don't want to shoot someone in the face one. Even the crappiest pellet gun can still kill if hits you in right place.
It's not about it being classed as this or that, it's knowing what it can do and acting responsibly and having common sense.
Alli_Draggy
Wadjet's family
I'll also say, as a mom of a herp-crazy kid, I really do have to put some faith in the vendors and folks there to keep my child safe. Repticon is advertised heavily in local parenting publications as a family event. And that means you get kids like mine, who love anything with scales, dream of having a pet cobra (and I don't mean a FWC-I mean an actual Naja Haje) and think of themselves as the next incarnation of Steve Irwin or Jeff Corwin, and who, when they have a chance to go on a hike near a creek, respond "I'll bring my snake hook-maybe we'll find a water moccasin!".
I've seen people at Repticon surrounded by a half dozen kids if they simply pull out a ball python. And not all parents stay right with their child and are saying "No, you can't touch the snake until he says it's OK"-some really do spend the time sitting in the snack bar (or knitting in the demonstration area-I saw that this year), while their kids wander.
--Donna
I've seen people at Repticon surrounded by a half dozen kids if they simply pull out a ball python. And not all parents stay right with their child and are saying "No, you can't touch the snake until he says it's OK"-some really do spend the time sitting in the snack bar (or knitting in the demonstration area-I saw that this year), while their kids wander.
--Donna
chris68
Arundel Reptiles
And when parents of herp-crazy kids stop coming to shows that can no longer be advertised as family events, everyone in the herp community suffers.
Nfafan has a responsibility as a keeper to consider the possibilities of his actions, as they reflect on all of us. Some of us, a minute dot in the pixel-filled tv screen that makes up the herp community voiced our opinions. One sliver of that dot did kinda ramp it up a bit (you know who you are). Obvious we all have a different idea of what common sense rules apply here. Thats 'Merica for you.
Jmho it's a bad idea to show up and walk thru a show to sell a snake, on a few levels. Being it's an a FWC adds some credence to my opinion. It's not a bad idea to meet someone in the parking lot tho, again jmho. Know who you are selling it to before you do, again because of what it is and it's my opinion. I'm just trying to look out for you, and the community. That's a fact.
Yes, dramatic...Yes, worse case...but it happens, and the last thing we need as a community is MORE legislation, but that's what happens :shrugs:
Nfafan has a responsibility as a keeper to consider the possibilities of his actions, as they reflect on all of us. Some of us, a minute dot in the pixel-filled tv screen that makes up the herp community voiced our opinions. One sliver of that dot did kinda ramp it up a bit (you know who you are). Obvious we all have a different idea of what common sense rules apply here. Thats 'Merica for you.
Jmho it's a bad idea to show up and walk thru a show to sell a snake, on a few levels. Being it's an a FWC adds some credence to my opinion. It's not a bad idea to meet someone in the parking lot tho, again jmho. Know who you are selling it to before you do, again because of what it is and it's my opinion. I'm just trying to look out for you, and the community. That's a fact.
Yes, dramatic...Yes, worse case...but it happens, and the last thing we need as a community is MORE legislation, but that's what happens :shrugs:
Nanci
Alien Lover
Nfafan, this is by no means directed at you. I promise. But whenever I see a person walking through a show with their bearded dragon/ball python/GTP/terrified frilled dragon/cham on their shoulder I think to myself "What a mother flippin' ignorant idiot, to expose their old pet/new purchase to that kind of excitement/possible pathogens/parasites/escape etc." People I know who purchase reptiles either carry a large bag to secrete them safely away in or leave them at a friend's/original vendor's table until they are ready to go.
Really, the idea of finding someone you know, vending, and asking if you can set the snake on their table, and the vendor gets a little kickback if it sells, or maybe setting your animal on a friend's table in exchange for watching the table for breaks, whatever, would be the best way to go. You'd get a lot more exposure and be viewed as legit by serious shoppers, that way.
Really, the idea of finding someone you know, vending, and asking if you can set the snake on their table, and the vendor gets a little kickback if it sells, or maybe setting your animal on a friend's table in exchange for watching the table for breaks, whatever, would be the best way to go. You'd get a lot more exposure and be viewed as legit by serious shoppers, that way.
beautifullywild77
Go Penguins!!!
You know hognose snakes aren't illegal here. They are a class III just like corn snakes! So that is telling me that FWC has something more than the hognose!
I could be wrong!
BTW I wouldn't walk around with my hognose freely around a show.
I could be wrong!
BTW I wouldn't walk around with my hognose freely around a show.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
There are several DIFFERENT issues that people are discussing, and some very valid points.
One important issue, regardless of species, is the very fact of trying to sell without paying for a table. IMO, shows that allow this to happen risk offending their vendors who have paid for a table. Those vendors rightly expect that their competitors at the show have also had to pay, or possibly "paid" in some other way, such as the talks that we often trade for tables.
We have sometimes pre-arranged to buy something from a local person at a show. They usually stopped at the admissions area, and we were called to the front to pick it up from them there. A good compromise, IMO.
I don't feel that the disease argument is completely valid. Although it is true that the walker may not be subject to the same scrutiny as a vendor set up in one place, the fact is that I have seen plenty of scrawny, unhealthy, mite covered, herps at tables, too. And most (but not all) vendors do allow potential buyers to handle the animals. I have done A LOT of shows over the years, and am not aware of any parasite or disease problems among my animals arising from those shows. It COULD happen, of course. But so could it for an official vendor.
Although I don't consider it fair for a "freebie" walker to be able to sell freely at a show, I also don't necessarily hold it against him (or her), or consider it a sign of lack of morals in other areas. That is because, over the years, I have learned that people who work "regular" jobs and who have never run even a part time business, don't always think the same way that entrepreneurs do. What seems like just common sense and logic to even a part time business owner is an alien way of thinking to many, although most of them will be able to see the logic once it is pointed out to them. Some of the walkers may have just a couple of extra snakes, or a litter or two per year, and never really thought about the rest of us trying to run a full or part time business. This does not really excuse the ignorance of the facts, but does explain a different way of thinking that should be KINDLY pointed out, IMO.
One valid complaint, in my opinion, is that buyers don't know who they are buying from, for potential later questions or complaints. But that could easily be alleviated by walkers providing business cards, even if they are home made on a personal computer.
I think a good compromise is to share a table. We have, more than once, partnered up with somebody who only has a few, noncompeting herps to sell. Their "price" is often to provide us with help for the weekend in exchange for some use of table space. Other friends have partnered up by splitting table rent among two or more friends, and sharing the space.
The other main issue is about rear fanged snakes. I think that issue has to be resolved by the rules of the particular show about the subject, and the laws of the particular state. What Meg said about hognose snakes in comparison to snakes such as FWC is true - they may be as, or more, dangerous. BUT - each state has its own rules, as does each show. Follow those. But of course, be aware that you have a certain amount of liability with ANY live animal, especially non domesticated ones. I have seen customers bitten at shows by a vendor's moderately large python, and have heard of fairly bad bites by other legal animals such as monitors or large tegus. So liability is a concern whether you are a show walker, vendor, or just a home owner with pets.
One important issue, regardless of species, is the very fact of trying to sell without paying for a table. IMO, shows that allow this to happen risk offending their vendors who have paid for a table. Those vendors rightly expect that their competitors at the show have also had to pay, or possibly "paid" in some other way, such as the talks that we often trade for tables.
We have sometimes pre-arranged to buy something from a local person at a show. They usually stopped at the admissions area, and we were called to the front to pick it up from them there. A good compromise, IMO.
I don't feel that the disease argument is completely valid. Although it is true that the walker may not be subject to the same scrutiny as a vendor set up in one place, the fact is that I have seen plenty of scrawny, unhealthy, mite covered, herps at tables, too. And most (but not all) vendors do allow potential buyers to handle the animals. I have done A LOT of shows over the years, and am not aware of any parasite or disease problems among my animals arising from those shows. It COULD happen, of course. But so could it for an official vendor.
Although I don't consider it fair for a "freebie" walker to be able to sell freely at a show, I also don't necessarily hold it against him (or her), or consider it a sign of lack of morals in other areas. That is because, over the years, I have learned that people who work "regular" jobs and who have never run even a part time business, don't always think the same way that entrepreneurs do. What seems like just common sense and logic to even a part time business owner is an alien way of thinking to many, although most of them will be able to see the logic once it is pointed out to them. Some of the walkers may have just a couple of extra snakes, or a litter or two per year, and never really thought about the rest of us trying to run a full or part time business. This does not really excuse the ignorance of the facts, but does explain a different way of thinking that should be KINDLY pointed out, IMO.
One valid complaint, in my opinion, is that buyers don't know who they are buying from, for potential later questions or complaints. But that could easily be alleviated by walkers providing business cards, even if they are home made on a personal computer.
I think a good compromise is to share a table. We have, more than once, partnered up with somebody who only has a few, noncompeting herps to sell. Their "price" is often to provide us with help for the weekend in exchange for some use of table space. Other friends have partnered up by splitting table rent among two or more friends, and sharing the space.
The other main issue is about rear fanged snakes. I think that issue has to be resolved by the rules of the particular show about the subject, and the laws of the particular state. What Meg said about hognose snakes in comparison to snakes such as FWC is true - they may be as, or more, dangerous. BUT - each state has its own rules, as does each show. Follow those. But of course, be aware that you have a certain amount of liability with ANY live animal, especially non domesticated ones. I have seen customers bitten at shows by a vendor's moderately large python, and have heard of fairly bad bites by other legal animals such as monitors or large tegus. So liability is a concern whether you are a show walker, vendor, or just a home owner with pets.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
I find that hard to believe. The only person I know to have taken a FWC bite is Conrad Wernett. He got tagged by a FWC in the Raleigh area and wound up going into anaphylactic shock and being admitted for several days. I saw some photos and they looked much worse than the one you posted, I was always of the thought that they were MUCH more serious than hognose, etc.
Apparently it can be a roll of the dice concerning the severity of the bite.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107295
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107295