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It’s about time to run up the white flag.

The ordnance lists what they find dangerous and says if Ky thinks it is we don't want it here either. I turned it around every which way even where it says an animal that requires greater care than what you would find in commercial pet store. I can by corns in three different pet stores here so does that not mean they are excluded..nope they are a harmless constrictor therefore they are included.
 
"... standard of care and control greater than that is required for customary household pets sold by commercial pet shops..."

If any corns are sold in local pet shops......

my two cents.

regards,
jazz

 
The problem with most of the laws in most areas is they usually do not hire nor consult with any 'professional' reptile organizations or people. Thus, the naive opinions of the lawmakers are how laws are written and crazy animals such has corn snakes get labeled dangerous when other more formidable animals remain perfectly legal to own.

We had a similar problem in Columbia, SC where inside city limits they wanted to ban all animals that were capable of attaining a weight greather than ONE pound! Yep....box turtles, sliders and big corns would have been outlawed. But you know what....trained attack dogs were legal as long as you had a leash. I'm not trying to knock people with big dogs....but in my opinion...a 'crazy' dog would be a lot worse than a 'crazy' corn snake. In the end the law as passed but is never really enforced. The Fish and Game did not support it nor did the local Zoo so when either organization is called to remove said illegal animals, both organizations refuse and the animals stay by default as no one will confiscate them!

One question....
Have you considered the approach that corn snakes are pets and there is an official registry for such pets? Maybe if you pointed to the ACR or some of the other 'pet' websites you might showcase corns aren't dangerous. I know you've probably tried everything....just thought I'd ask.

These stupid laws have a way of 'catching on' with other states so if we don't do what we can in one state it'll be much easier for the law to go through in the next.

Good luck.
 
Yeah I pointed out that was a official registry for cornsnakes a breeders list if you will my response was there was one that zoos use for lions and tigers as well and they were included in the ordnance.
 
Petitions can do wonders.

Also, maybe go find a final year law student and they might be able to give you some ideas.

Don't give up.

Maybe take a wee break..step away from it for a bit..but don't give up.

Start the petition with your neighbours, the ones that would probably be affected if one of your crazy corn snakes got loose. ;-) Don't keep it within the reptile world, expand to the layman world. You never know who you may bump into that could help you considerably.

I'm really rooting for you on this one!

Kathy
 
Is it just me, or do I see a problem here?

When they list constrictor species, what are they referring to? A latin name, or are they referring to how a snake eats? I have a feeling that they heard/knew 'boa constrictor' and therefore have 'constrictors' on the list.

Have you asked these people point blank about keeping a native non-venomous snake species? What was their answer?

I would personally ignore the law and tell them to kiss my ass. They cannot legally enter your premises to 'search' for your reptiles, period.
 
Joejr14 said:
Is it just me, or do I see a problem here?

When they list constrictor species, what are they referring to? A latin name, or are they referring to how a snake eats? I have a feeling that they heard/knew 'boa constrictor' and therefore have 'constrictors' on the list.

Have you asked these people point blank about keeping a native non-venomous snake species? What was their answer?

I would personally ignore the law and tell them to kiss my ass. They cannot legally enter your premises to 'search' for your reptiles, period.
Click to expand...
I see a problem but I could do nothing about it. I can keep bird eating spiders but not corns.

The city can't but with my state permit allows a officer to show up at a reasonable time to inspect my animals when ever they want.
 
this ordinance is very poorly worded. it's full of contradictions. if i were an attorney, i'd tear this thing to pieces. they list insects and amphibians but dont specify any species? does this mean i cant keep a pet grasshopper or a tree frog?
then they say something about animals being deemed dangerous by the fish and wildlife commission...so do they mean that the animals they just listed have to be deemed dangerous by the FWC or not?
and they say it excludes animals sold in pet stores. corns are sold in pet stores but they are constrictors, are they exempt or not?

i'd get a group of herp owners together and hire an attorney. they need to rewrite this ordinance. it's as clear as mud. and they're going to have a difficult time enforcing it.
 
"...any other animal identified by Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources as inherently dangerous to human health and safety, and any other animal that would require a standard of care and control greater than that is required for customary household pets sold by commercial pet shops or domestic farm animals."

Based on above assumtion that said listed animals are considered dangerous by the State of Kentucky, and that corns fit the desciption descibed above as "customary household pets", id say that your corns pass the mustard. It would however probably take an attorney and some offical documentation from the Kentucky DoFW (and i would think some corrospondence from a regional manager of a place like Petco or any other large scale pet store that sells corns) to have the law re-written to exclude corns.

The real truth behind laws are this... Any politician can write and pass a law, regardless of how vauge or poorly it is written... but that does not mean that that law will stand up in court.
 
true, i also doubt it will stand up in court if anyone were to challenge it. like i said, it's poorly written and there's too many ways to interpret this ordinance. it's too vague. i hope the law that Florida is proposing is not as bad as this one. but they're going to specify species and they're using the help of experts in herpotology and from the FWC to write the law.
 
“exotic or wild animal” shall mean any live monkey, non human primate, member of the feline species other than a domestic cat, member of the canine species other than domestic dog, raccoon, skunk, fox bear, leopard, panther, tiger lynx, or any other warm blooded animal that can normally be found in the wild, alligator, crocodile, cayman, sea mammal, venomous, or poisonous reptiles, amphibians, or insects, constrictor snakes, any other animal identified by Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources as inherently dangerous to human health and safety, and any other animal that would require a standard of care and control greater than that is required for customary household pets sold by commercial pet shops or domestic farm animals. Wild animals do not include domestic dogs (excluding hybrids with wolves, coyotes, or jackals), domestic cats (excluding hybrids with ocelots, or margays), farm animals, rodents or any other hybrid animal that is part of a wild and captive bred species of common cage birds.
Click to expand...
I don't see anything in that paragraph that applies to corn snakes. Corns are not "constrictor snakes." Yes, they constrict their prey if necessary, but that is not what is written there and I think everyone here is being way too overtechnical and woefully misinterpreting that to mean "all snakes that are nonvenomous." Everyone who is not a snake geek knows that a constrictor snake is a huge boa/python/anaconda type of snake.

I think any common sense reading of that law would have nothing to do with a corn snake. How can anyone (a lawmaker, a law enforcer, or a judge, or anyone) read that and think it applies to any corn snake? :shrugs:

I think the interpretation here is way way way over the top, and would be like saying that a law banning albino pets would include charcoals. :rolleyes:
 
BTW I'm not being facetious or trying to "stir the pot" here. I really think we're all so caught up in our own geeky technical definitions of things, our hobbyist mumbo jumbo, that we are reading something entirely different (and wrong) into it.

Ask the people at your workplace, or other non-herpers you know, "what is a constrictor snake?" I think you'll find that the answers will be consistent descriptions of big boas and pythons and will have nothing at all to do with small nonvenomous colubrids. (They won't even know what the heck a colubrid is, and I doubt many will even know that other snakes kill via constriction.)
 
good points serpwidgets.
although unfortunately, most of the people i know think that all snakes are bad. if they happen to come across a rat snake they think it's a rattlesnake and will kill it. i asked them how they knew it was a rattlesnake...their answer "i'm not going to take the time to find out, by then i'll get bit and die. the only good snake is a dead snake." i've shown pics of my snakes to my co-workers and they ask "so can this snake kill you?" and i say no. but then they insist that the snake isnt safe. a tiny itty bitty corn snake isnt safe...even though it's nonvenomous. they think all snakes grow up to be killers. it's stupid i know...but i'm just telling you what i've experienced.
and my friend has a ball python. he's gotten all sorts of comments about it when he'd take it out for a "walk" at the petstore or in his front yard. some people would come up to him and ask him if it was a baby and if it grew up could it eat a human baby...he's had neighbors complain to the apt manager. they're afraid that the snake will escape and try to eat their kids or their dog. and this snake is only about 3 ft long right now. but people think that it will become a giant....
i'm just saying that most people are ignorant when it comes to snakes, and i think that legislation needs to combat ignorance not perpetuate it. maybe we are all reading too much into this ordinance...but maybe we arent.
 
Well folks this is an interesting discussion but this law is a close copy of many laws passed by local municipalities under the assumption of protecting us from poison snakes.

Places close to me that have very similar laws Bucyrus and Bowling Green Ohio have had this law tested and constrictor snake is interpreted as any snake that kills its prey by means of constriction. Bowling Green Ohio home of BGSU a university were a gentics professor uses cornsnakes has this very law. The professor keeps her boids at school because they are illegal in her home. Marion Ohio is looking at a similar law because some idiot got nailed by a rattler he was keeping which raised a huge panic.

Most people react with fear because they think all snakes are evil, but in most cases when educated they see how harmless most reptiles really are. Khaman I feel for you, but your lawyer is probably right as this style of law has been tested in court and passed muster in other places. Plus the court you will be in is a local court where politics plays as much as law and you would have to appeal to get to a court without bias and most appeals courts don't want to overturn lower courts because that would jam up the courts with appeals (more than it already is).

Sorry to be the pessimist in the group but a realist I am. Your best bet would be to ask for an exception as a breeder that pays taxes already and ask for a annual permit to cover all your animals for less money. God's speed.
 
Serpwidgets said:
I don't see anything in that paragraph that applies to corn snakes. Corns are not "constrictor snakes." Yes, they constrict their prey if necessary, but that is not what is written there and I think everyone here is being way too overtechnical and woefully misinterpreting that to mean "all snakes that are nonvenomous."
Click to expand...

Exactly. That would mean that ALL reptiles were banned. Wouldn't they legally have to "evict" all the wild snakes from city limits then because they're on city property?
 
If it were me, I would research STATE law to see if there is a preemption clause. Many states will restrict local governments into being unable to make specific laws that are in conflict or more strict then state law. I believe I read here that you were granted a state license. That was per state law, which may imply that your local government cannot contravene a law you have previously complied with and meet the requirements for in a broader jurisdiction.

Have you consulted with an attorney? It may be worth a couple hundred bucks before just throwing away this part of your life.

Another thing... there actually was a law on the books in Kentucky concerning nonvenomous reptiles, but I believe it got tossed out. Take a look in this thread to see if there is anything useful... http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22320

Sorry to see this sort of crap happening.
 
Municipalities are allowed to further restrict the laws that Ky has passed but are not allowed to redefine something that has already been put forth such as, constrictor snakes are only snakes that fall into the python family, they must use Ky’s definition of a constrictor snake “A nonvenomous snake that kills its prey by constriction”. The law in Covington was challenged several times but to my knowledge was never overturned. I had a few buddies that moved to Erlanger and <ST1:p<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place to escape it. I did consult a lawyer when all of this started and he all but said he could help me because it could not be made a class action suit unless many people got involved and no one ever came forward.
 
Response from Bowling Green

I emailed the city clerk for bowling green with this question:
Comments: I would like to know what the law is regarding keeping
snakes. I noticed the new animal ordinance, and was curious if you
could
put in plain english for me. Thanks.

I got the following response today:
There is no law against keeping snakes. If the snake is considered to
be wild or exotic by definition in the ordinance of "exotic or wild
animals," then you must notify and apply for a no-cost permit from
Animal Control at the Bowling Green Police Department. If after
inspection of the premises where the exotic or wild animal is housed
and
if found to be acceptable, then the no-cost permit would be issued. If
not deemed acceptable, then other arrangements would need to be made or
corrected in order to comply with housing of the wild or exotic animal,
or the animal would be impounded at the owner's expense.

I have attached a copy of the adopted ordinance for your convenience
and review. Specific questions regarding the permitting process should
be directed to Animal Control at 393-4244.

Katie Schaller
City Clerk
There it is for what its worth.
 
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