motley question

[ZoologyGirl]

Trundlefart! :roflmao: I love it.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

Ok so should normals carying anything be called het normal het blah blah blah? Nope they are called Classic het blah blah blah. LOL someone had to bring in tessera that one is still being studied. Yes its proven a new morph but not everything has been learned about it. That and the price tag have kept me away from those lol. I'm sticking with Motley het stripe because anytime I see het Mot/Stripe they meant they were 50-50 chance for either.

 

[fyrefocks]

Het = Heterozygous, it means one copy of a gene at an allele, whether it is dominant (expressed), co-dominant (partially expressed) , recessive (not expressed) or whatever else have you.

I stand corrected. But in tessera, what would be the point of labeling and selling het tesseras? Will 2 normals from a tessera clutch produce tesseras? I dont think ive seen the answer to this question, or even thought to ask it. But maybe in the form of a PM? This is getting OT. My bad.

I make a motion that from now on, any snake that is carrying one motley gene and one stripe gene be called a Trundlefart. That way, everyone will know what it looks like as well as what it's genetics are and there will be no more confusion or arguments.

Youve no idea how badly i needed the laugh i just got from this! Thank you! :roflmao:

I second this motion! XD

Motion passed! :smash::smash::smash::smash::smash::smash:

 

[fyrefocks]

Silverymoons iHerp page now says she an Anery Trundlefart 66%ph Amel, Hypo. Im good with that.

 

[MysticExotics]

Silverymoons iHerp page now says she an Anery Trundlefart 66%ph Amel, Hypo. Im good with that.

So does that mean I have to change Hekate to "my hot little trundlefart"???

 

[fyrefocks]

So does that mean I have to change Hekate to "my hot little trundlefart"???

Do i need to say duh?

 

[ZoologyGirl]

Now I wish I had a trundlefart.

 

[desertanimal]

I don't think it's incorrect to say motley het stripe in this case. The problem really is that we name the alleles that, in dominant heterozygous or homozygous recessive form, create a particular phenotype the same name as the name for the unusual phenotype. Just as we call all wild type alleles at every locus under the sun "normal," when they are completely different alleles at completely different loci. Mendel called all his green peas "green," whether they were heterozygotes or not, which is what calling the animal "motley" is doing in this case. If it were my snake I would label it motley (def het stripe). The advantage Mendel had is that he named his alleles g and G. And geneticists call alleles by number/letter combos, so that you can talk about the phenotype and genotype separately and everyone always knows which you're talking about. It's the hobby sloppy terminology that causes confusions like these, but it's never going to change so we're stuck with the inevitable confusion and disagreement about how it's right or wrong to use the sloppy terminology in the few cases where the traits in question aren't simple Mendelian, as when there are more than two alleles at a locus.

 

[desertanimal]

I thought Tessera had been conclusively decided as simple Mendelian autosomal dominant? In that case, as gelshark says, "Tessera" is the phenotype. You could have a homozygous dominant individual on your hands or a heterozygote. If you wanted to label that information you'd have to write "Tessera (homo)" or "Tessera (het).". It'd be useful to know if your interest was breeding Tesseras, bc with heterozygotes you get only half that phenotype per clutch. But really only proven breeders could be sold as homozygotes, or offspring from two proven breeders. Proving them homozygotes would require testing them a couple times with a non-Tessera and getting 100% Tessera clutches.

 

[fyrefocks]

I guess the largest part of my problem with the label now is that it will be confusing to those who dont understand the genetics. And since people are hopefully always going to be adding themselves to this hobby, the question of how mot/stripe works is ALWAYS going to be asked by people. If they were labeled accurately as het mot/stripes then it would be easier to explain away the confusion. Basically, we're making it harder on the future generations of corn snake enthusiasts.

 

[Susan]

I guess the largest part of my problem with the label now is that it will be confusing to those who dont understand the genetics. And since people are hopefully always going to be adding themselves to this hobby, the question of how mot/stripe works is ALWAYS going to be asked by people. If they were labeled accurately as het mot/stripes then it would be easier to explain away the confusion. Basically, we're making it harder on the future generations of corn snake enthusiasts.

IMO, no matter what we label them, there is going to be the same amount of confusion. The future corn snake enthusiast is either going to get how motley and stripe work and will understand either label, or have trouble understanding the relationship and won't get any label until the light bulb goes on.

 

[fyrefocks]

IMO, no matter what we label them, there is going to be the same amount of confusion. The future corn snake enthusiast is either going to get how motley and stripe work and will understand either label, or have trouble understanding the relationship and won't get any label until the light bulb goes on.

Thats why im good with the trundlefart update.

Trundlefart: m/s
Motley: M/M
Stripe: S/S

 

[ZoologyGirl]

IMO, no matter what we label them, there is going to be the same amount of confusion.

If they were labeled accurately as het mot/stripes then it would be easier to explain away the confusion. Basically, we're making it harder on the future generations of corn snake enthusiasts.

I agree with Susan, for anyone new to cornsnake genetics it's going to be confusing no matter what they are labeled. If it is labeled het mot/stripes they are going to be confused as to why there is a pattern on a snake that is only het...where in most morphs if something is het that pattern/color does not show. So no matter what they are labeled the new-to-corns person is going to have to learn at least something about genetics in order to understand what is going on.

I don't mind the motley het stripe label myself. The only problem I see with it is when there is a super long morph name, with lots of hets, and the motley part gets separated from the het stripe part. For example: Lavender amel motley het anery caramel stripe. I have seen it this way a few times, and with the "stripe" so far from the "motley" I find my brain doesn't immediately connect the motley het stripe...it just sees a motley animal with a bunch of hets. So I like to see the motley het stripe part close together, like: Lavender amel motley het stripe anery caramel. Or something to that effect. I don't know, like Susan said it's going to be confusing no matter how it is labeled.

...so Trundlefart it is! :rofl:

 

[ghosthousecorns]

To me het motley/stripe is confusing. It implies that the snake is het for both, but then there are snakes that are labeled het motley OR stripe (where the parent is a motley X stripe and it has not been proven which one was passed on)
My preferred label for such snakes has been "motley X stripe" but motley het stripe is already kinda widely used and accepted.
But I guess Trundlefart works lol

 

[fyrefocks]

To me het motley/stripe is confusing. It implies that the snake is het for both, but then there are snakes that are labeled het motley OR stripe (where the parent is a motley X stripe and it has not been proven which one was passed on)
My preferred label for such snakes has been "motley X stripe" but motley het stripe is already kinda widely used and accepted.
But I guess Trundlefart works lol

A het mot OR stripe would be normal in appearance, so theres no confusion there. Just breed it to a motley OR a stripe to see which it is.

Who cares about the standard? It used to be standard for woman to have dinner on the table at 530 when the men came home from earning the money. You have to put your foot down somewhere. And i hope to take out a lot of toes in the process!

:twoguns:

Yeah Trundlefart!

 

[carnivorouszoo]

Oh for crying out loud you guys are nuts! I feel I have gotten pleanty of info on this, some parts a bit more than I needed lol. See I have no confusion when I see Amel Motley het Caramel Stripe. I can see the animal is indeed Amel Motley, and with a good breeder I would know that the parents were a Caramel Motley bred to a Butter Stripe thus knowing how it is known the animal is het for the . . . well . . . hets lol. This is the same way I plan to sell any hatchlings I decide not to keep, with the known genetics listed, a list of any possible hets then photos and info on the parents. Whether or not the info is kept or used is out of my hands

 

[medusacoils]

For S & G's, I posed this very question to Don S. He gave me a great answer which I will share.

Wayne:

I'll respond by citing my experiences in breeding these two alleles. I'll just reel off some facts (as I know them) about the motley mutation locus.

When I breed motley to motley, I get all motley corns.
When I breed stripe to stripe, I get all striped corns.
When I breed striped motley to striped motley, I usually get striped corns, motley corns, and striped motley corns.
When I breed motley to stripe, I get all motleys, some of which are striped-motley in appearance.
Since a motley het stripe is not always striped-motley in appearance, I say mutants of that genotype are motleys het stripe (regardless of their phenotype).
Corn snake breeders get varying results when pairing a motley het stripe with a striped corn.
A striped corn is essentially also a motley, but a motley is NOT necessarily carrying a copy of the striped mutation -- indicating that the striped allele is recessive to the motley allele.
To complicate the identification process a little, a motley het striped can completely lack any degree of pattern striping, so stripes on a motley may or may not signal that it is het stripe, but some simple motley-appearing mutants ARE het for stripe.

If the reality of the relationship between motley and striped mutants were as simple as "our world is definitely not flat", you would not be writing to me. If this relationship was clearly definable, I'd cite the supporting evidence. However, I believe the jury may still be out for this trial. I DO believe that they're both alleles of the same locus and I believe the striped allele to be recessive to the motley allele. Given the vastly variable phenotypes among motleys, striped motleys, and striped mutants, my belief regarding the heritability of these two alleles (and their obvious relationship) may well be altered in the next few years -- after seeing more production evidence. Add to the known exceptions and anomalies of these alleles the fact that lately, some motleys possess belly checkering. Most have very little, but I think in the coming years, we're going to see some motleys with fully checkered bellies. Won't that be fun? : (
Sorry to waffle in my response, but I believe it's smarter to cite my experiences than to come out and declare that I know their hereditary relationships. I'm not one of those brave souls that state things as fact -- if I have the slightest inkling that the evidence is anomalous (as is the case with alleles of the motley locus.

Don
SMR

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2011 6:55 pm
Subject: Motley and Stripe Question

Which is the correct term?

Motley het Stripe?

~OR~

Het Motley Het Stripe?

Wayne

I don't know if it answers the OP's question but I found it to be extremely interesting. Especially the part about Motley's with Belly Checkers since I found a few of those in my clutch last year.

Wayne

 

[carnivorouszoo]

Thank you Wayne, but now my brain hurts lol.

 

[medusacoils]

Thank you Wayne, but now my brain hurts lol.

Mine too!

Your Welcome! :cheers:

Wayne

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Words of wisdom from Don!
I think his reply to you also helps resolve the question on whether motleys can have belly checks. I am glad he mentioned that as well, because it causes doubt on whether the snake is in fact a motley for some people when they see a few checkers, but it does seem to be popping up more and more.

I think in the coming years, we're going to see some motleys with fully checkered bellies. Won't that be fun? : (

Not really