My Corn Is "Potty Trained"

[Carinata]

You can't just say "snakes in general". It's like saying that dogs are vicious. I could say 'snakes are picky feeders' or 'snakes are really calm'.

You are on a corn snake forum on a thread about corn snakes, and you're telling this person that her snake is horribly stressed out by handling... When the majority of corns do fine with handling.

And as to the moisture loss... way to make a mountain out of a molehill. Snakes are capable of doing this thing known as "drinking" and they do this to a substance called "water". "Water" is routinely provided in their viv/tub/bin/cage/whathaveyou for them to partake of, ad lib.

Yes, an animal can drink. But when you're soaking a snake so often and stressing it like that it's not going to really to calm it down and be comfortable enough to drink.

Right now she is working IN THE FIELD. You know, like studying animals in a natural environment? And believe it or not, in nature there are quite a few species too!! Species that she gets to observe, and you know...study.. in their natural surroundings!!!

That's great, I think that's awesome!

I wouldn't touch the animals from the people he works for with a 10-foot-pole. I don't care how "cutting edge" they are. I'd rather get my snakes from people I can trust.

Any information about your schedule/collection I got from your posts, son.

I'd also like to add that this is a CORN SNAKE forum, this thread is discussing CORN SNAKES. If you want to talk about "other species" then go somewhere else to talk about them.

EDIT: Awesome post Shiari!!

Yep, I work 3 jobs, but it's all about time management. Because I still manage to take care of my animals very well and I have never had someone make a negative comment about an animal they received from me. I don't care of you don't like who I work for, there's always that person that is willing to drop buy our animals...

 

[Shiari]

Yes, an animal can drink. But when you're soaking a snake so often and stressing it like that it's not going to really to calm it down and be comfortable enough to drink.

Yup. And my corns are so stressed by handling that they NEVER drink. / sarcasm


A quick bath is not going to stress a snake to the point of refusing to drink, especially if only done once a week. Stop making stuff up.

 

[ratsncorns]

Ok, congratulations! You have credentials, that's wonderful. I can just tell you from my experience and people who have been in the field over 25 years will agree with me.

List them.

 

[Lennycorn]

Maybe this is a tad off topic but ....this has nothing to do with the OP or title and maybe a new thread should be started.

 

[ratsncorns]

David, just because you have spent the past year scooping poop for a flipper does not make you the be all and end all of snake keeping.....

Let him ride his high horse. Hes still having fun.

 

[Em Wright]

Yes, an animal can drink. But when you're soaking a snake so often and stressing it like that it's not going to really to calm it down and be comfortable enough to drink.

:laugh: :laugh:

Folks, don't hold or soak your snakes or they'll refuse to drink water! Now that is truly ridiculous. :laugh:

 

[Carinata]

Yup. And my corns are so stressed by handling that they NEVER drink. / sarcasm


A quick bath is not going to stress a snake to the point of refusing to drink, especially if only done once a week. Stop making stuff up.

Ok I'm going to finish this right now. I think tampering with a snake when you think it's going to poop and soaking when you think it's going to poop is stressful and so does any other reptile enthusiast. It is stressful to the animal, and that's that. On the note of handling, weekly handling is fine, with certain species be-weekly handling is fine, anymore than that and the animals will get stressed, in my opinion. I am a straight shooter, and that's what I do, I don't sugar coat anything. None of the people that inquired, or bought animals from me this season were taken aback by the way I talk. I have never had this issue on any other forum, so I don't see what I'm doing wrong here?

 

[ratsncorns]

So I saw a rat snake the other day soaking in the river. It must be stressed out from sitting in the water so long.

Oh, and that cali king I saw two days ago that was just chillin in my hand, not musking (which would be a sign of stress), probably thought I was going to eat him. I did find a rattler today that was eaten though.. RIP

 

[Carinata]

So I saw a rat snake the other day soaking in the river. It must be stressed out from sitting in the water so long.

Oh, and that cali king I saw two days ago that was just chillin in my hand, not musking (which would be a sign of stress), probably thought I was going to eat him.

I don't understand what you people don't understand! It's freaking beyond me! It's the human influence that stresses the animals. If a snake freely soaks for 3 days, that's it's business, but when it is forced to sit in water, that's when an issue arises. And sure Cali King sitting in your hand, that's fantastic, but does that represent all the snakes out there?

 

[Shiari]

So I'm not a reptile enthusiast? Well color me carnelian, here I was sure that I am very much fond of reptiles and love learning about them and their care. In fact, one might say I'm ... enthusiastic about the subject!

And Beth isn't an ethusiast? Or Em? Or Lenny? I'll bet Nanci and Eric aren't either then!

I'll be a straight shooter too. Right now you are full of what you scoop for that flipper.

 

[ceduke]

Wow, I've been keeping reptiles for sixteen years and I've worked with hundreds of species between the two exotics specialty shops I worked in for years...and I sure wan't aware that I thought any of that garbage. Perhaps I'm not a reptile enthusiast?

MANY snakes in the pet trade can tolerate almost-daily handling. The two exotics shops I worked in were VERY hands-on with most of their animals, and it worked out fine. High stress animals were given less hands-on time, but MANY species were fine with brief handling on a daily or almost-daily basis. This was fantastic for us and our customers, since the animals were examined daily, calm and used to handling, and NOT STRESSED.

Neither store I worked in had a problem with animals going off feed or becoming sickly, so it's clear to me that the animals were not stressed by regular handling or regular soaking.

 

[ratsncorns]

And sure Cali King sitting in your hand, that's fantastic, but does that represent all the snakes out there?

I would ask you the same question about your "experience". The number you have handled dont really make up the entire snake population. We, as scientists and hobbyists, really cant make assumptions about any animal behavior. We just havent learned enough. Its all based upon our experience, but not real proof, or real data, as its really hard to quantify animal behavior or feelings. Sometimes I think I know a certain animal behavior but when its broken down with hard data, I was actually incorrect in my assumption. We take what we want from our experience and tend to make it into what we think it should be, or we want to be. So, the best way you could have approached this thread is something like, "in my experience, you should limit how much you soak your snake because it might stress it out". That would have come across much better than your aggressive approach.

 

[Carinata]

So I'm not a reptile enthusiast? Well color me carnelian, here I was sure that I am very much fond of reptiles and love learning about them and their care. In fact, one might say I'm ... enthusiastic about the subject!

And Beth isn't an ethusiast? Or Em? Or Lenny? I'll bet Nanci and Eric aren't either then!

I'll be a straight shooter too. Right now you are full of what you scoop for that flipper.

Bad use of words, many reptile enthusiasts will agree with me.

Wow, I've been keeping reptiles for sixteen years and I've worked with hundreds of species between the two exotics specialty shops I worked in for years...and I sure wan't aware that I thought any of that garbage. Perhaps I'm not a reptile enthusiast?

MANY snakes in the pet trade can tolerate almost-daily handling. The two exotics shops I worked in were VERY hands-on with most of their animals, and it worked out fine. High stress animals were given less hands-on time, but MANY species were fine with brief handling on a daily or almost-daily basis. This was fantastic for us and our customers, since the animals were examined daily, calm and used to handling, and NOT STRESSED.

Neither store I worked in had a problem with animals going off feed or becoming sickly, so it's clear to me that the animals were not stressed by regular handling or regular soaking.

All I am saying is in my experience and the people I have talked with's experience, stress can be caused by excessive handling especially if you are trying to get the snake to poop.

I would ask you the same question about your "experience". The number you have handled dont really make up the entire snake population. We, as scientists and hobbyists, really cant make assumptions about any animal behavior. We just havent learned enough. Its all based upon our experience, but not real proof, or real data, as its really hard to quantify animal behavior or feelings. Sometimes I think I know a certain animal behavior but when its broken down with hard data, I was actually incorrect in my assumption. We take what we want from our experience and tend to make it into what we think it should be, or we want to be. So, the best way you could have approached this thread is something like, "in my experience, you should limit how much you soak your snake because it might stress it out". That would have come across much better than your aggressive approach.

Thanks Angela, I will use this in the future.

 

[ceduke]

I have to say that I think knowing any individual snake's limits as far as handling and soaking and whatever other stressors the snake may experience is MUCH more important than 'knowing' how snakes think and act as a whole.

If one keeper has two or three snakes that they are very close to and handle often, they are probably more aware (on average) of their snake's temperament and tolerance than a keeper whose time is split up between a BUNCH of snakes and doesn't get a lot of one-on-one time with individuals.

There was a time when it was like that between me and my hognose. I could bring her to work with me, take her outside, handle her for long periods. I could read her easily, and she never missed a meal or showed any signs of stress. Now, I don't handle my snakes nearly as often, so I wouldn't attempt bringing any of them to work with me or long handling sessions.

 

[Kaminoke]

I agree that if this is to be continued we should open a new discussion thread, so this will be my last post on here (but not on the topic if you wish to continue it).

Please, show me any evidence or list any actual examples of personal observations that a snake that is used to being handled is stressed out by it, or that it is any way less healthy and "happy" than a snake that is left alone the vast majority of the time. A generalized statement without anything to back it up such as "snakes are stressed out by people/handling" won't cut it - you say you observe them and that you are taking this knowledge from personal experience and the experience of experts, so give me an example. I can give examples within my own collection and several others that support the claims I have made and will be happy to list several if you wish. In short, no snakes in my care or in the care of people I know, including people on this forum, have ever suffered negative effects from being handled properly. Yes, I know that snakes do not always display obvious signs of stress right away, but they do exhibit symptoms. They don't eat regularly, they have shedding problems, they get sick, etc. I've had snakes that were stressed out for one reason or another. Hell, most snakes are pretty stressed for a while when they change hands or move to a new location. We "reptile enthusiasts" usually know what to look for, and I see none of that with snakes that are handled and are otherwise healthy.

 

[Carinata]

Here's evidence. Ever handled a snake before you fed it? Most won't eat right after,correct? Yep, that's stress.

 

[ScottyK]

Here's evidence. Ever handled a snake before you fed it? Most won't eat right after,correct? Yep, that's stress.

I handle all of my snakes right before I feed, even hatchlings which I let my kids handle while I'm getting the mice into the feeding containers. I normally take them right from thier hands, place them in with dinner and in most cases they are already eating the mouse before I have the lid all the way on.

Based on my experience I would say that "most if not all" do eat right after handling if they are otherwise feeding normally and healthy. On the other hand I have never noticed that not handling reticent feeders has been any extra help getting them to eat.

Two completely unrelated issues in my opinion....

 

[Carinata]

Ok, those are your snakes. But why does every care sheet state, you shouldn't handle a snake before or after feeding? There's gotta be a reason.

 

[Em Wright]

I've never read that in a care sheet... I have only ever seen it said that you should not handle the snake AFTER feeding so as not to cause a regurge.

It would be stupid to say "don't handle before feeding" because then your only option is to feed the snake in its enclosure. My snakes eat just fine after being handled for a few minutes before being offered their dinner. And that's snakes ranging from a month old to adulthood.

Carinata, you're grasping at straws and very obviously trolling now. This conversation died last night and today you brought it back up... and only to cause further drama.

Let. It. Go.

 

[Carinata]

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCNotEating.htm-How about that? I'm not trolling, I'm making my point. I was insulted and degraded last night, I'm speaking my peace.