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Platinums . . .

Weebonilass said:
I would disagree with you, Michelle. It's a project that Rich Z has already said that he didn't have any interest in and believes he has sold everything off. Sounds like he didn't produce enough for long enough to show that it's indeed a true new morph since there are so few known examples of it. The person investing the time, energy and emotion over the years that it takes to prove it out should be the one entitled to name it.
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No problem on disagreeing, I like to hear other points of view. So am I understanding your point correctly (and I apologize if Im not)
For example, I have bred for exceptional Reverse Okeetees over my entire breeding history, ..in fact it was the reason I started breeding as I could never get my hands on a "perfect" RO until I started my own selective breeding...now I believe I have put tons of time, effort, energy and emotion into it, does that mean I can rename Reverse Okeetees from my line? Kinda like Abbott Okeetees?
Honestly, Im asking....not meaning to be sarcastic...just trying to understand :)

Michelle
PS Just for the record....Im pro Platinum.....against Ashy, ha!
 
Another point I would like to bring up, it seems the big three have more to do with naming then they know. When I first started out in this hobby, I didnt have a morph guide, or anything really..I dont know if Kathys book was out in 93. I cant recall..we just had general care books in my area....nothing that stated names for morphs. I would receive pricelists through (can you believe) snail mail....and honestly learn by the names given by the big breeders on their said pricelists. We never asked why or how...was just sort of accepted. Course I never hung out at shows back then so maybe this was discussed there?

PS I never knew the true origin of most morph names until logging onto Richs site for the first time years ago...otherwise I dont know how I would have come about that much info and back history.
 
CreaturesoftheNight said:
Another point I would like to bring up, it seems the big three have more to do with naming then they know. When I first started out in this hobby, . . . I would receive pricelists through (can you believe) snail mail....and honestly learn by the names given by the big breeders on their said pricelists. We never asked why or how...was just sort of accepted.
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I remember those days as a peon pet store employee!! :D Looking over the pricelist drooling over the coolest sounding names and wondering what the hell that looked like!! Oh the memories!! That's a great question . . . where did those names come from "back in the day"?! Rich? Kathy?! Maybe that's a topic for another thread? It would be interesting to hear how those names got thrown around before the instant gratification of the internet and email. A stroll down memory lane?!

D80
 
CreaturesoftheNight said:
No problem on disagreeing, I like to hear other points of view. So am I understanding your point correctly (and I apologize if Im not)
For example, I have bred for exceptional Reverse Okeetees over my entire breeding history, ..in fact it was the reason I started breeding as I could never get my hands on a "perfect" RO until I started my own selective breeding...now I believe I have put tons of time, effort, energy and emotion into it, does that mean I can rename Reverse Okeetees from my line? Kinda like Abbott Okeetees?
Honestly, Im asking....not meaning to be sarcastic...just trying to understand :)

Michelle
PS Just for the record....Im pro Platinum.....against Ashy, ha!
Click to expand...


You are talking apples and oranges here... you are talking about improving a known morph, the same as Carol is doing with the Miamis... known morph just taking it into a whole other universe. The Plantium is a new morph that still has to be totally proven out. This next batch will definitely help, but I believe Rich Z believes that another generation is really required to make sure it's really a breedable morph.

Perhaps once you get enough of them out there they could be called Michelle's RO, like Abbotts Okeetees :D
 
Ginger, I think the questions directed specifically towards "Platinum" aren't so much about whether it's proven out genetically, it is. The question (and again, not so much from Rich) is whether it's significantly different phenotypically from a Phantom to warrant being called something other than Phantom Anery. It's a legitimate argument.

I don't want to speak for Rich, but I think his words are leaning more generally towards any new morph being tested (check out some old Lava threads for example) as to it's genetic inheritence. Whether it's truly a new gene or a different manifestation of a current gene (for example I don't believe Christmas Hypo is definitely pinned down yet?), or something entirely different. I think Rich is speaking towards the patience needed in truly testing out something that is uniquely different and new. You first have to figure out if it is new. Then you have to grow it up to see what it looks like. Only then should you be thinking about new names . . . if everyone else has the patience for it that is. ;)

Back to specifically discussing Phantom Anery/Platinums. They are genetically different for certain, and they are "new", but are they significantly different as adults (another thing Rich points out with naming any morph) to warrant a different name. That waiting for adulthood coloration is just as important. For example genetically a Butter Bloodred is proven, but is the color they turn what people expected? Does it match with the name Sulphur? More importantly does it need to?

Just some thoughts, :)
D80
 
This has become a rather interesting thread to say the least. I to am curious where the old names came from. BTW Eli she is just stunning!
 
I don't think there needs to be a physical difference to warrant a name for a genetic combo, especially when you consider how variable many morphs can be. Personally, I'm looking at this whole thing as if we are all trying to come up with a nickname for someone we all know. If that person has no nick name then sure, oldest friend gets first shot. If it doesn't stick then it doesn't matter that much who comes up with the next one, as long as they know them pretty good. I think Platinum is a good nick name and I think he deserves a shot at giving the Anery Hypo Charcoals of the world a new nick name. Lets see how it works, maybe it will stick, maybe someone will come up with something the masses like better, only time will tell. :)
 
CreaturesoftheNight said:
now I believe I have put tons of time, effort, energy and emotion into it, does that mean I can rename Reverse Okeetees from my line? Kinda like Abbott Okeetees?


Michelle
PS Just for the record....Im pro Platinum.....against Ashy, ha!
Click to expand...

"Devilznight Okeetees",,,I like it!

And ditto on the pro/against........
 
Drizzt80 said:
Back to specifically discussing Phantom Anery/Platinums. They are genetically different for certain, and they are "new", but are they significantly different as adults (another thing Rich points out with naming any morph) to warrant a different name. That waiting for adulthood coloration is just as important. For example genetically a Butter Bloodred is proven, but is the color they turn what people expected? Does it match with the name Sulphur? More importantly does it need to?

Just some thoughts, :)
D80
Click to expand...

This brings us to the crux of the matter, I think. WHY create a new name?

If a Charcoal+Hypo+Anerythristic looks identical to a Charcoal+Hypo, then is a name needed to differentiate between the two? In my opinion, yes, it is. Because it clearly identifies a GENETIC difference, even if it isn't a VISUAL difference. If someone has a "Platinum Corn" in a deli cup, then the information that this name imparts is that it is homozygous for Charcoal, Hypo, and Anerythrism, regardless of what it looks like.

Now on the other hand, suppose selective breeding of Reverse Okeetees produces some outstanding examples that tend to breed true considering this next level of appearance. Although the genetics haven't changed (in a classical sense), does the new appearance justify a new name to be applied to this VISUAL offshoot of an existing cultivar? Again, in my opinion, yes it does. Because it provides information that indicates a distinction between that line and others that may develop from the same originating stock.

The whole purpose of a name is to provide information. Whether it be the genetic structure of what is within an animal you are viewing, or if it is to provide a guide as to what the expected visual appearance of that animal is being offered under that name.

At least this is the way I typically look at my own choices in naming animals when the situation arises. Truth be known, sometimes it is just for convenience sake. Writing out a whole long string of genetic names to indicate a cultivar gets old REAL quick, so picking a name which for all intents and purposes may be nothing more than simply shorthand for that genetic mix, may be a justifiable reason itself. I mean, who the heck wants to write out something like "Hypo Lavender Blood Red Ashy Motley"? :rofl:
 
Originally Posted by Rich Z
I mean, who the heck wants to write out something like "Hypo Lavender Blood Red Ashy Motley"?
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Originally posted by that Jeff guy.... Yeah...I guess you do have the problem seeing how you probably already have a dozen of those....
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*LOL* Heck Rich, you telling me your hand would get tired writing all that out on a Deli lid?

Only Rich knows what he has mixed in the back room Jeff, but I would not doubt he has a homo clutch of those hanging out somewheres..

Regards.> Tim of T and J
 
Just to be devil's advocate here....

Last I checked, Platinum (as a metal) is silver with a hint of pink, indicating the hightened presence of potassium. This particular morph looks NOTHING like platinum to me.
 
Invictus said:
Just to be devil's advocate here....

Last I checked, Platinum (as a metal) is silver with a hint of pink, indicating the hightened presence of potassium. This particular morph looks NOTHING like platinum to me.
Click to expand...
Good point . . . other than the fact that:

Charcoal is BLACK, not gray
Snow is WHITE, not pink and white
Lava is generally ORANGE, not red
Amber is TRANSLUCENT, not yellow
Caramel is poopy BROWN, not yellow brown gray
real Butter is OFF-WHITE, not yellow
Ghosts are INVISIBLE, not gray with yellow chins

Need any more examples? :D

I hear the word Platinum, I think silver, you telling me those snakes aren't silver looking?
D80
 
Good points as well... except for the fact that you've basically validated my utter hatred of some of the completely dumb trade names of corn snakes. (Although I still think that Plasma is BY FAR worse than Platinum...)
 
Invictus said:
Good points as well... except for the fact that you've basically validated my utter hatred of some of the completely dumb trade names of corn snakes. (Although I still think that Plasma is BY FAR worse than Platinum...)
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No, you have validated YOUR hatred for what you think are completely dumb trade names. I never said I didn't like them or think they were fitting. :)

I do agree with you on Plasma though! At the risk of being accused of attempting to name Bloodred Lavenders I think Amethyst is a better, more descriptive, and appropriate name for the morph. I believe that it was recommended several years ago by Susan in one of the Bloodred discussion threads of old if my memory serves correctly. :shrugs:

D80
 
Rich Z said:
In my opinion, yes, it is. Because it clearly identifies a GENETIC difference, even if it isn't a VISUAL difference.
Click to expand...

I think it's funny that I read this after being told that the new pamphlet by some self-proclaimed naming authorities say the term ultra and ultramel are interchangeable because they look the same. Obviously, I think ultras and ultramel deserve different terms for the reasons Rich outlines above.

With that said, however, I don't think a new name is needed in this case.
KJ
 
If it's the CMG - I think it said that it may not be possible to reliably visually distinguish them in a clutch that produces both. Thus the conclusion I drew is that some snakes marketed as one may in fact be genetically the other, and that a test cross with an amel may be necessary to really determine what you have.
 
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