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Presidential Election 08'

Who has your vote for President in the 08' election?

  • Barack Obama - Joe Biden VP

    Votes: 36 46.8%
  • John Mcain - Sarah Palin VP

    Votes: 25 32.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 5 6.5%
  • You will not be voting

    Votes: 11 14.3%

  • Total voters
    77
I'm sorry if all you took from that was my puncuation, I guess it shows the larger picture of how
much "grown folks" value what we have to say as young people. But I guess insulting someones intelligence is easier than articulating your own, but toe to toe I think I'm well equipped to hold my own in any debate, philisophically or factually, so I come out unscathed once again!!!

It's hard to "hold your own" in debate when you can't "articulate" your intelligence with proper sentence structure. Stream of conscience writing is great for a first draft, but when you want someone to read and UNDERSTAND what your saying you need to use proper punctuation and sentence structure. I'm not saying your unintelligent, but that you fail to demonstrate intelligence in your posts. I honestly find it difficult to read what you've typed, and often skip your posts.
 
My, you are a serious and feisty young lad! If you think that my little dig at your improper punctuation indicates that every "grown-up" dismisses the opinions of young people, then I'd have to say that you're really stretching things. Hyperbole much? There's also the fact that I'm not THAT old, and you're not THAT young. I considered myself a "grown-up" at 21.


Whoah, whoah-- slow down, my young friend! I insulted your punctuation, not your intelligence. I'm not sure what "articulating" my own intelligence means. Maybe the word "demonstrate" would have been a better choice. You see, the whole reason I poked a little fun at your punctuation is that I couldn't even force myself to read your comments. Language should flow, and decent punctuation is the key to this. Run-on sentences kill this flow, and readers may quit before they have received the awesome gift of your philosophical and factual wisdom.

You seem a little defensive. I'm only trying to help. ;)
Ok you're right, I just started this thread to get enlightenment not to criticize, and people seem to already dislike my opinions from a previous post. I simply thought that's why you commented, if you read earlier posts a couple of people have called me out for no reason on this post because of my view of a completely different discussion.
I don't mean "grown folks" as old or 21 as young either, 38 is in your prime so don't think I believe 38yr olds belong in a retirement home. By the way that picture below your posts is the coolest looking snake I've ever seen what type is it, it has no black like a butter with green eyes, if you will be at the New England Reptile Expo and have babies I would be so interested.
 
It's hard to "hold your own" in debate when you can't "articulate" your intelligence with proper sentence structure. Stream of conscience writing is great for a first draft, but when you want someone to read and UNDERSTAND what your saying you need to use proper punctuation and sentence structure. I'm not saying your unintelligent, but that you fail to demonstrate intelligence in your posts. I honestly find it difficult to read what you've typed, and often skip your posts.
Alright with two people critiquing my sentence structure I'll take it as a lesson and not as an insult, I do have a problem with punctuation but I thought people were using that as an excuse to dismiss my opinions. I'll take it as help, I just thought I typed well seeing I spell correctly and don't use LOL, IMO, BTW etc...
Feel free to skip my posts, but I do try to give a good expression of my opinion, but punctuation seems to be the key to not looking like I'm rambling, so I'll take your advice as help, -thanks-
 
...38 is in your prime...
Don't you believe it! ;)

By the way that picture below your posts is the coolest looking snake I've ever seen what type is it, it has no black like a butter with green eyes, if you will be at the New England Reptile Expo and have babies I would be so interested.
Thanks. :) It's a topaz (lava-caramel). I don't know if I'll hatch any this season, and I don't know if I'll be at that expo, but I'll keep you in mind.
 
I also noticed you were from connecticut, do you know of a woman named Linda Krulikowski? She has a couple of books out on reptiles of Connecticut, and I will be doing illustrations for a book she wants to publish. Also maybe David Carroll who is my grandfather that was born in Connecticut, and he is fairly well know in NE for his books on turtles, field studies and artwork. I was just curious because you seem to know alot about reptiles and you're also from NE.
 
Susan I also agree, in a perfect world people wouldn't need abortions or sex education, but there's just one thing... this world is far from perfect and women do have the right to make the choice, especially seeing Palins anti-abortion includes women who are sexually assulted, molested, or abortion because of the health risks of giving birth.
And that's just ridiculous, I hope Obama wins and I am so happy to see the support, even if your not as pro Obama as I may be, he is still the better candidate for the real issues, because church and state should remain seperated, and it's not like Mcain-Palin have a system in place for healthcare, education, etc.. to care for the children that may be affected by there ideals of a perfect cristian country.

I'm sure I'm reading this correctly, lack of punctuatiion aside. Pro-choice and pro abortion are two different things. Palin is anti pro-choice, which encompasses pro-abortion, but not exclisive to it. Pro-choice means my husband doesn't have to approve what I do with my body. Pre Roe vs Wade, women having a hysterectomy (for health purposes) or tubal ligation had to have thier husbands approval. A man could have a vasectomy without his wife approving. It wasn't all that long ago at least I'ld like to think I'm not that old it was illegal to educate women about birth control, let alone give it to them. I said I was against abortion as a means of birth control, which has nothing to do with a perfect world. My thinking is if you can't afford birth control, you can't afford a baby and I don't want my taxes paying for someones else night of pleasure.
I don't think my feelings about this are ridiculous.
While we have a seperation of church and state in this country, your comment about thier "ideal perfect cristain country", is a bit harsh. I may not be a Christian, but I won't bash them either.
You started a poll everyone will not agree with you, that is thier right. I may not agree with Jay, on some things I probably do, but I won't hate him anymore then I would hate Palin. A healthy talk of poltics isn't a bad thing, hate is not healthy. Maybe you could leave the word hate out.
 
Thanks. :) It's a topaz (lava-caramel). I don't know if I'll hatch any this season, and I don't know if I'll be at that expo, but I'll keep you in mind.


:-offtopic
Dean may I make a request for a Florence photo shoot?

OK, now back to our regularly scheduled something-or-other!
 
Susan, I don't believe I ever said hate, and my "perfect cristian country" was'nt at all a slight at the religion, one of my very best friends is cristian. I just feel Palin in particular is forcing the cristian ideals to people that may or may not be cristians themselves. I'm reading my post, and am not sure what you mean. My point was simply that I think Palins ideas come from a place where every family is tight knit, and based on cristian values. Which her heart is in the right place, and in a perfect world families would help raise children and teach responsible parenting. But with such an education crisis, and healthcare crisis, it's just not realistic to tell women they can't get abortions. Although I wish more parents would wait until they can provide for a child before they become pregnant, I think stopping them from having abortions will just create horrible crimes after birth, and only add to the cycle. I was agreeing with you, and I keep searching my post to see if I made a mistake but I'm still not sure.
 
I haven't read all of the posts because I'm also one that thinks my choice (although likely pretty obvious) isn't something to argue about HERE. I do have to ask (and sorry if this has been said already), though, is are you really saying it is wrong for someone to choose to euthanize a kinked snake, but it is also wrong for people to try to make it harder for someone to euthanize an unborn fetus?

You argued that it was our duty to keep all kinked snakes alive (sorry that I have to paraphrase a little here), but now you are saying you plan to vote Pro-Choice (implying that being anti-abortion is wrong). Hypocrite much?

....and before you or anyone else gets upset, I have a problem with the apparent conflict. I don't have a problem with your decision. Whether I agree with you or not, the abortion issue is a VERY minor one with me when I go to the voting poll. Matter of fact, it doesn't even cross my thoughts except as part of the general wish that I could vote for a candidate that agreed with me on every major issues. In other words, I don't let a party's stance on abortion influence who I vote for. There are more important, to me, issues to help me decide which ballot I pull!

KJ
 
Susan, I don't believe I ever said hate, and my "perfect cristian country" was'nt at all a slight at the religion, one of my very best friends is cristian. I just feel Palin in particular is forcing the cristian ideals to people that may or may not be cristians themselves. I'm reading my post, and am not sure what you mean. My point was simply that I think Palins ideas come from a place where every family is tight knit, and based on cristian values. Which her heart is in the right place, and in a perfect world families would help raise children and teach responsible parenting. But with such an education crisis, and healthcare crisis, it's just not realistic to tell women they can't get abortions. Although I wish more parents would wait until they can provide for a child before they become pregnant, I think stopping them from having abortions will just create horrible crimes after birth, and only add to the cycle. I was agreeing with you, and I keep searching my post to see if I made a mistake but I'm still not sure.

Do me a favor and at least learn how to spell the word Christian.
All politics aside I will never agree with an abortion for someone who won't buy and use a condom or use some form of birth control. You can not leap from lack of abortions to creating horrible crimes after birth. If for know other reason then to stop the spread of disease and pregnancy, I would pass out condoms on the street corner.
There will never be a perfect world, but there can be a better world
 
I agree with you, so I'm not sure what the problem is. I think that prevention is much better than abortion, but I think if abortions became illegal under Mcain-Palin, women might do worst things to the child after birth. And whoever called that hypocritical, because I disagreed with "culling" snakes does'nt understand my point.
The snake that started the debate was a snake with only one eye, and was otherwise a healthy, active, and a great eater. And then there was a link to a page, in which the debate was "culling" hybrids that did'nt fit the breeders idea of attractive. I thought that was a wrong reason to kill the snakes, simply because of their appearence. w in the case of a snake that can't eat or function properly, I think it's the breeders tough decision to choose whether it is worth it to try to bring it back to good health.
I don't find that hypocritical at all, because in both debates I'm siding with what's in the best interest of the snake, and baby. Now if a woman has tried prevention and gets pregnant, or gets sexually assulted, molested, or faces birth complications, then I feel she should have the right to choose. But if a woman selectively has an abortion based on the father, or because she was unprotected than that is wrong. And my point all along was, just because it is in the Christian bible that abortions are "sin", that should'nt dictate our laws because of what one person believes. And that just because a snake does'nt physically look desirable, that should'nt dictate whether it lives or dies based on what one person believes.
These are just my views, and I don't expect everyone to agree. But I hope I helped someone understand the points I was trying to make. -thanks-
 
Technically the bible doesn't really mention anything about abortion.

At any rate, I've never seen any kind of proof that there is a significant number of women using abortion as a form of birth control, and the fact that abortion strikes me as much more complicated, time consuming and uncomfortable than just using birth control, I don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard, Susan.

As far as the difference between culling snakes and abortion, the two aren't even remotely similar. Until it's born, a fetus is a parasite within the woman (Don't get up in arms about the word, because it's technically true) and quite often kills the mother. As much as I don't like abortion, I don't like forcing women to become nothing more than organic incubators against their will for nine to ten months a lot more.

Besides, it's a documented phenomenon that areas that have legal abortion are also areas that are more likely to have lower infant mortality rates and have better overall women's health than the areas that do not. Even across individual US states this holds true.
 
Besides, it's a documented phenomenon that areas that have legal abortion are also areas that are more likely to have lower infant mortality rates and have better overall women's health than the areas that do not. Even across individual US states this holds true.

I was unaware that there are US states where abortion is still illegal.

a quick google showed that some states are trying..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4780522.stm

Only, it did not pass, though as this is the most recent thing I could find.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08072207.html
 
It's so funny, I just sent rep to someone on this thread last night saying something to the extant of "I'm so glad I missed this thread and stayed out of it," but it's been a siren calling me since I woke up this morning and she's eating me now, LOL.
I'll keep it respectful, but that's pretty easy for me in this case, as you'll see below.

I don't think there's anyone who's thinking this is just another election, it's probably the most important one I'll ever have the chance to vote on in my lifetime (is that a strange kind of optimism?).. I know Dems who think we don't have a good candidate and I know Republicans who don't think they do either. I'm completely opposite of that, I think we have two great candidates. I wish they'd be a ticket together, though I also understand how that's pretty much not possible..

John McCain has always been a hero to me since I came to know who he was. What he went through in Vietnam is inspirational and worthy of respect from everyone. Everyone knows about it, so I won't get into what I mean with that. There's another story about John McCain that's more personal to me though, although nobody knows my side of it, LOL. When I was in Iraq, I was talking quite a bit to one of my fellow soldiers about things we were seeing happen to prisoners that we didn't agree with. We were kind of talking in whispers at first- it seemed odd to us that everyone was OK with it, and it kind of makes you feel crazy in a way, like you're the only one who thinks it's wrong. Looking back I think probably 85- 90% of soldiers probably felt the same way but we were probably all feeling like we were the only ones.

Anyway me and my friend were brainstorming what we were going to do about it. I won't go into too many details but suffice to say we KNEW that some of the abuses were ordered by people higher than the soldiers who were committing them. That's not to say it gets anyone off (it doesn't) but we worried that whatever we did about it would come down hard on those guys and not on the NCO's and Officers who more than allowed it. So for a long time we just talked privately to soldiers who committed offences, saying things like, "Hey just remember that we don't know what most of these guys are with us for, whether they were caught planting IED's or whether they were just out after curfew and heading somewhere to be questioned. Chances are more than half of them could be out on the streets tomorrow. How do you want them to feel about the American soldiers when they are out? What are you setting into motion if you abuse them?" After a while we had changed some minds and not changed some others. But nothing stopped, except our obligation to do the prisoner guard anymore.

Anyway, long story short (too late sorry) we decided to write a letter to John McCain. I think the reasons that we selected him were obvious, his own abuse by the Vietnamese, his understanding of the military, his reputation (more solid at that time than today) of standing up to anyone of either party when he thought they were wrong. We wrote the letter, we wrote home for the address of his office, and when we got it we talked again.

And we decided not to mail it.
We changed our minds because we got CYNICAL at the end. We were in a position (that's probably hard to understand for civilians) where we felt an enormous amount of responsiblity for each other (other soldiers with us) and didn't want to betray anyone. We got to thinking that in the end we would probably just hurt the smallest cog in the works. I was there in 03-04, when we didn't really have much connection to the outside world. No internet, very slow mail, no TV (and even when that changed, we were always on some out in the boonies FOB). When I got home I found out that John McCain had been fighting the issue the whole time, and looking for accountability from all the ranks. I was really ashamed to say the least.

I know many people (especially on my side- I'm a confirmed Democrat) say he doesn't look like that guy anymore: heck he's even changed his mind about torture. (Let's not get into semantics about this, I know he hasn't advocated all torture, but he's now agreed that there are 'special circumstances' where 'special tecniques' are called for and that runs against his earlier position)..
So the question is, do we feel that his turn around on so many issues is real? I don't really. I think he's saying what he has to say to be the Republican nominee for President. They all do stuff like this. I think he's one of our nations best politicians, but he's still a politician. His integrity has come through for me when it counts, in his job. This is the silly season and people have to play the game. Another thing that has impressed me about him- When we first went to war in Iraq, General Shinseki (the whole Army's General the number one) said it would take somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 US troops. Rumsfeld said that number was wildly off mark, and the next week a career soldier who rose through the ranks to the NUMBER ONE spot was taking an early retirement. Sure, that means he was fired. That's an enormous amount of disrespect for real expertise. I don't think Iraq was the war to fight, but I've always thought that if you were going to anyway, you ought to heed the advice of your military leaders. IMO, that advice that was not heeded accounts for much of the problems we faced in Iraq in later years. I wasn't psychic about that, lol, but Shinseki was and John McCain has pushed for that advice since (I'm referencing the famous surge here.. Which has been a success as far as Iraq goes.) That tells me that John McCain has the wisdom and humility to understand that one of the major powers of the President is the fact that he has the ear of any dang person he wants to hear from. Respect for experts has been wholly missing in the last 8 years.

Sounds like I'm voting for McCain right? I most certainly am not. How can I not vote for him given what I wrote above? Because John McCain is on the wrong side of just about every single major issue that I believe in. I first saw Barack Obama speak as Kerry's keynote speaker and remember wishing he was the candidate. I was trying my best to be, but was not wild about Kerry. I remember thinking "Shame that that guy could never be President in this country." Cynical again. I'm so tired of being cynical, and I'm thinking this is a pretty good election cycle for everyone to drop it. We have two very sincere candidates IMO, and I really feel that if my candidate wins or loses, this nation is going to be 100X better than today.


Anyway for all this typing it's still just .02
 
wow, incredible post. I am a huge Obama supporter, but I think you nailed it here. I have a tremendous respect for Mcains courage, and selflessness as a a POW, and noone can question that. I just feel that Obama is such an inspiration, and in my opinion he stands way better on a wide variety of the issues, especially with the current economy crisis. I love to see people like you stand up in a non political way, and just share why you feel the way you do, because this election is so incredibly important.
I personally think that Mcain has lost a little bit of his strength, and I fear Palin's political influence, I don't think she really has the knowledge to be second in line for president. Furthermore, I'm not sure Mcain will do nearly as much to fix our economic crisis. It seems like drilling and military is there primary focus to help the economy, and I feel Obama-Biden will do more to help find cleaner, more reliable sources of fuel, which will also open up more jobs.
I really appreciate your courage for fighting this war, and this may sound awful but I sometimes question some of what our troops have done. I have so much respect for you putting yourself in the shoes of the prisoners in Iraq, I know that most of our troops mean well, but I try to think of how some perfectly innocent iraq civilians may be treated. And you seem to have a great perspective on the bad treatment some might endure, as well as how many people you think feel the same way, but don't speak up out of fear.
I have really enjoyed reading your post, and I think you shared alot of great insight on some issues that are'nt usually talked about. Thank you, and I as well have watched Obama's speeches. Although I usually don't care much for politicians, I feel Obama is a great leader, and would greatly improve america, and our standing in the world. As well as be a role model for people all across the world.
 
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